On Harmonia's postion as a superpower.

flame_champ · Post by **flame_champ** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:32 pm

The 27 true runes were not a part one big rune, they came from ''sword and shield''

dradon_paladin · Post by **dradon_paladin** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:40 pm

I know they were part of sword and shield. Who is to say that they could not used together as one. From what my friends told me Luc and Harmonia have already found ways to manipulate the runes. This knowlage suggests that Harmonia knows a great deal more about the runes and magic then anyone in the Suikoden world knows (or should now). They might just want the runes to further their knowlage or as merits and symbols of their unquestionable power.

Furthermore the true runes seem to have their own personal agendas. It might not be to far fetched for them to be orchestrating together. Sword and shield were a perfect example. They wanted to fight so baddly they found ways to turn even the best of friends on each other.

Perhaps the Circle Rune has a similar goal. It wants to rally the other runes under its control. What better way then to make Hikusaak go into hidding, and let Harmoina get into the shape its in. Weakness breads weakness, and if it took 100 years or 1,000 years other nations would gladly put an end to Harmoina. Fighting Harmoina on their sick day would still require a coalition of most world nations. This battle would almost for shore draw out the remaining true runes into Harmoina's reach.

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:47 am

I feel I should point something out. Sword and Shield are -not- Black Sword and Bright Shield. Sword and Shield are two pre-creation concepts that waged war upon each other, the consequences of which was creation itself. The True Runes, including one must surmise the halves of the Rune of the Beginning, were gems on Sword and Shield. The Runes carried by Genkaku/Riou and Han/Jowy are -symbolic- of that original battle but are not in fact the same.

As for the rest, the only other thing I should say is that in no way is Hikusaak like the Buddha. The Buddha is -not- a diety, not in the wya everyone suggests Harmonia sees Hikusaak. A much more appropriate comparisson are the Emperors of China and Japan. They are seen as -living- gods. They have the Divine Mandate of Heaven to rule, and upon their deaths an honored place in the heavenly courts awaits them. One could call ancient China a theocratic empire, as well could one call Harmonia.

The interesting thing here to note, that only now occured to me, is that the original Suikoden [not the game Genso Suikoden, but the -story- Suikoden] is the Japanese translation of a Chinese novel about a rebellion against the Imperial government on -behalf- of the Emperor. Because the Emperor had the Divine Mandate of Heaven to rule, his rule could not be questioned; and though he was a god, he was also human and could be deceived by the evil advisors who only sought their own power and cared nothing for the people of China. The entire rebellion was so that they could open the eyes of the Emperor to the corruption surrounding him. And if Harmonia is something one might compare to the China of the Suikoden [forgive me as I do not wish to butcher the Chinese name and don't remember it offhand]... well, I'm not sure what. It could mean any number of things and this is only idle speculation anyway, so I'll stop here.

dradon_paladin · Post by **dradon_paladin** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:47 pm

After I get woke up and what you say about the sword and shield runes completly registers to me I might not agree with it.

In either case I mean that their religion might have been more philisohical than spiritual. Priests could be no more than devote thinkers or propaganda artists.

However I don't know if the people worshiping Emperor H just because he was revered like the chiniese and Japanese kings of old, is reason enough to call Harmonia "The Holy Kingdom".

I think it hints to a religous foundation of some sort. Seeing as I don't see many goddess statues in my games I just can't shake the idea that perhaps Hikusaak introduced a path of clearer thinking when he took Harmonia, we do see alot of Buddha type monks in these games. Lets not forget one more thing. The big temple in Harmonia is a library, not a temple at all by the standerds by deity based religions. Only if knowlage, and logical thinking is their deity could this pass as a place of worship.

Anyway thats my take on the whole Harmonia agenda, religion thing.

Harukaze · Post by **Harukaze** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:59 pm

You may be thinking in reverse. Worship of Hikusaak does not make the Harmonian Empire Holy, the Holy Harmonia Empire makes Hikusaak a holy figure.

And I'm not sure disagreeing with my statements regarding Sword and Shield will do you much good; unless my memory is off entirely, that's from official sources. Not to put words in his mouth precisely but if memory serves the information came from BlueMoon back when he was, well, BlueMoon.

dradon_paladin · Post by **dradon_paladin** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:44 pm

I don't understand?? Harmonia, the nation itself makes Hikusaak a holy figure?? Can you explain what you mean by that??

Its hard for me to tell what is official and a translation mistake. The whole concept of Harmonia being a kingdom would mean that their would be a king or emperor figure in charge, that has not been so for a long time. Instead they have a church of fascist priests, and a socialist aristocracy that oppresses the middle and "sub human" classes and thus denies basic civil liberties to many of its people. (Perfect example of why comunisim and theocracies will never fly)

Another thing. I think Hikusaak apointed himself Emperor. This means he was more than likely a dictator who ruled through a religion of lies and fear. He might have built himself up to be a god, but looking at Harmonia's current state I doubt their was ever a religion of piece and love. Just the little peasents being afraid of the church, rich people, and the HVG secret poliece.

RageRune · Post by **RageRune** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:21 am

Well it is known that Hikusaak defeated the Kingdom of Aronia and was apointed leader of the new country Harmonia, so I don't think he dicated himself the leader. What I believe is that Hikusaak is either missing or a leader in name only in Harmonia's politics, and since religion and politcs don't mix then the Harmonian temple (church) is responsible for all the "dictatorship" that goes on within Harmonia in terms of the population's classes.

As for the reason Hikusaak is looked at so highly (if he's still not missing) he is the founder of Harmonia and a True Rune Bearer so that would make him pretty important.

dradon_paladin · Post by **dradon_paladin** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:09 pm

Who, appointed him leader?? Who would have that athority?

Post by **patapi** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:43 pm

He led the war, so naturally his followers would want him as the leader of the new country. There's little involvement of authority there.

dradon_paladin · Post by **dradon_paladin** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:34 pm

from the sources I read here I was lead to believe that he founded Harmonia. It says people feared him as "The Absolute One" or something like that. Nothing I read gives me the idea he was a nice guy.

Luna Cressier · Post by **Luna Cressier** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:02 pm

The Kingdom of Aronia was apparently a really bad contry in civil war (or something) and Hikusaak came and stopped the fighting (kinda like in S1). So he stayed on as the leader of the new country, which he ended up being glorified into a 'god like' situation.

Post by **patapi** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:26 pm

dradon_paladin wrote:from the sources I read here I was lead to believe that he founded Harmonia. It says people feared him as "The Absolute One" or something like that. Nothing I read gives me the idea he was a nice guy.

People must have supported him when he first led the rebellion, either because they wanted to help him wholeheartedly or because Aronia was truly awful a country that they'd support anyone who was courageous enough to start a rebellion. Most probably the latter.

koriand'r · Post by **koriand'r** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:10 am

Its possible he chose to rule for himself because a) He was the leader of the rebellion b) Had a true rune on him, which makes you important anyway and c) perhaps he was overwhelmed by the power of his true rune and obeyed what it commanded him to do. So all that slaverly, relgion and rune collecting may be from the circle rune's desire than Hikussak himself.

koriand'r · Post by **koriand'r** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:12 am

I don't he was/is a scienctist, for starters the church is in charge of everything and the social class is an attempt to keep things preserved than progress. Though having slaves to keep a large country intact reflects more of harmonia's need for control than any, Though slavery dosen't really help the economocy as it costs a lot to keep a slave well and maintained for its duties.