You can influence the average level by killing of characters of sending them on a dispatch mission. srd_27's investigations confirmed that only high-level characters influence the average party level, not the low-level characters (https://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/view ... hp?t=15052).
So the question is ... what is the average?
So I played around a bit with the Obel Ruins Lvl. 1 character levels at different stages of the game. I removed high level characters via dispatch missions, noted the average level of the first X characters, and checked Obel Ruins. After several tests, I assume:
The average party level is the average level of your 12 highest characters that are currently available (i.e. not killed or on a dispatch mission) - rounded down.
I confirmed this over several stages of the game. I also tested it for the recruits during the Mitsuba recruitment (she joins at average party level +4):
When my average party level was 16, I fought Mitsuba at level 20, at which she also joined.
When my average party level was 15 (I sent a character on dispatch), I fought Mitsuba at level 19, at which she also joined.
If anyone else could crossconfirm, that would be great. I didn't get too many different Obel 1 configurations to check, but it seems all enemies are the same as your party level and the elemental spheres are party level -2 there.
Each hunting spot seems to have a different modifier for party level, needs more testing.
Interesting, i might want to cross-confirm this as well one day.
If you want more saves to try, I have some save states at different starting levels here. These are from my speedrun test saves, where the characters have huge variance in levels, so might be easier to see the impact of level changes on this one. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LO8bjt ... sp=sharing
If anyone else could crossconfirm, that would be great. I didn't get too many different Obel 1 configurations to check, but it seems all enemies are the same as your party level and the elemental spheres are party level -2 there.
For Obel, what I noticed is that some elementals have -2 modifier while some have +0 modifier like the other monsters. Once you get to level 5, the Golems have a +3 modifier.
I haven't checked the elemental chambers yet.
I confirmed it with 8 or so different average levels, but might test a few more. Thanks for the save stats - I have several, but I always have just a few X&Co quests left open for the most part...
KFCrispy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:34 am
Nice! Any idea how Champion's Rune affects it?
I've tried this rune once some time ago. Obel Ruins monsters was at LV17 previously, and it jumped up to LV19 when I equipped it on LV27 Frederica. Still don't really know how exactly this rune works.
So I played around a bit and it's not as straightforward (also a bit harder to proof, I don't have a NG+ with the Champion's Orb)
Anyway, I think the average party level with Champion's Rune is: Average of the five* highest level characters rounded up (instead of down as in the case of the normal average level).
I wonder if the Champion's Rune affects the starting level of characters, though; especially those that you recruit after a battle.
*It might be six instead of five. In the few data points I have, the sixth average is exactly 32 (32.00000000...) and it might be the game rounds this up to 33. Six would be a lot more intuitive than 5, since the normal average is calculated by using the first 12 characters and it's more intuitive to me to use half of that amount ...
EDIT: I did not check if the character wearing the rune affects this in any way.
So I am very sure now that it's average of the first six characters, rounded up, and it rounds X.0000000 up to (X+1) (is that typical behavior for programming languages?).
If I ever get around playing a NG+, I'll check whether optional recruit levels are affected by a Champion Rune.
I am now trying to figure out how experience points are awarded. This is a wip, but if anyone else has done research on it, feel free to share!
Like in every Suikoden, your EXP gain depends on the character level. This is the easy part - then it becomes tricky.
Basis EXP
This EXP is awarded for actions that don't affect any character or enemy specifically. This includes elemental beads or the elemental sword spells. The EXP depends on the stage level, not party level. I am not sure yet how the stage level is determined, but it could be something like highest enemy level (or average enemy level).
I haven't checked out every level difference yet, but here's a rough idea:
Support Skill, Healing Magic, and Healing Items EXP
I have not checked Noah yet, so this applies to everyone else only.
The EXP gained for support skills except dig and pack. Pack uses the same EXP table as normal items. Dig uses Basis EXP*0.5, but I remember that Rene also got 630 when I first used her, so maybe her rule differs somehow. I also don't know at the moment how much she gets for a successful dig.
For all other support skills (Yu, Carrie, Cedric, Gary), it is the same as the Basis EXP table (using the difference in character levels) but with Target Character Level+1. So if a Level 15 Yu heals a Level 20 Kyril, he gets 260 EXP instead of 220. For Carrie, Cedric, and Gary, I think only the highest level character targeted in the area counts; it caps at 630 anyway.
The same rule applies for healing magic.
It also applies to Rune spells that target the user only (Kangacorn Rune, Great Owl Rune, White Tiger Rune), and it always yields 20 EXP in this case.
Attack EXP
So everything until here was quite easy, and even if there are some minor errors and things to figure out still, it's mostly clear.
Attack EXP are a completely different beast and I have no clue how they're calculated.
Non-lethal attack
Scenario: you attack an enemy, but your attack doesn't kill it.
Rule: The more damage you deal, the more EXP you gain.
Example: A LVL 1 character attacks a LVL 2 enemy.
8 DMG -> 94 EXP
28 DMG -> 105 EXP
This is true for most of the level differences. I have not thoroughly checked the high level character -> low level enemy situation (i.e., you are overleveled), but it seems there is a cap there.
Now every level difference has a different rule and I am in the process of figuring out these rules. My assumption is: every level difference has a base EXP (e.g., 10 EXP for even leveled character-enemy pairs) and the damage is added to this value after some arithmetics.
Killing blows
Scenario: you attack an enemy, and your attack kills it.
Rule: The more remaining HP the enemy hadl, the more EXP you gain.
Example: A LVL 1 character attacks a LVL 2 enemy and kills it.
1 remaining HP -> 410 EXP
40 remaining HP -> 432 EXP
It is interesting that it does not matter how much damage you deal, but only how much HP the enemy has left. I have not checked yet Hero IV's instant death spell in this regard (runes are a different matter anyway, see below).
Again, each level difference has its own set of rules. It is again a base EXP value (which is level difference specific, but does not seem to follow a strict mathematic relation with the noral base value) + a somehow modified remaining HP value.
Rune attacks yield different EXP than regular attacks
Runes affect the EXP, and I am not sure how.
Scenario: a LVL 2 character kills a LVL 2 enemy (remaining HP 23) with a spell.
It yields 62* EXP, in contrast to 52 EXP for a regular attack.
Now, in my tests today, runes always increased the gained EXP. In other tests, especially in extreme scenarios, runes decreased the EXP gain a bit.
Scenario: a LVL 12 character kills a LVL 19 enemy (remaining HP 3):
- with a rune: 1023 EXP
- with a regular attack: 1064 EXP
Scenario: a LVL 10 character kills a LVL 19 enemy (remaining HP 3):
- with a rune: 1244 EXP
- with a regular attack: 1275 EXP
Scenario: a LVL 8 character kills a LVL 19 enemy (remaining HP 3):
- with a rune: 1535 EXP
- with a regular attack: 1536 EXP
I have not thoroughly checked yet whether spells or skills make a difference. In any case, runes do something and it does not seem to be consistent.
I noticed that the effect of level difference between the two characters are retroactively updated within a single experience gain
(i.e. if a character leveled up, then the exp value they gained beyond the original level will be discounted as the level difference got smaller)
For example, in my NG+ speedrun strats for Mido Shallows, I have a setup where a LVL12 Kyril will got boosted to LVL21 (9x level-up) by killing 4x LVL27 enemies with Dying Wish co-op.
With Fortune Rune, Kyril will jump to LVL23, only 11x level-ups. Even though it should've been 18x level-ups if the EXP gain is doubled.
So, any of your previous results that gives >1000 EXP will likely get affected by this as well, which could make it very hard to determine the actual EXP value you are meant to get without factoring the change in level difference.
Oof, thanks for that. I wonder how that actually works mathematically though. I also noticed that EXP gain seems to cap for a single kill, maybe it's the cap doing it's thing in your case - but I will test this further.
Is calculation of exact EXP gains of any relevance for your speed running to optimize routing?
Antimatzist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:30 am
Oof, thanks for that. I wonder how that actually works mathematically though. I also noticed that EXP gain seems to cap for a single kill, maybe it's the cap doing it's thing in your case - but I will test this further.
Is calculation of exact EXP gains of any relevance for your speed running to optimize routing?
Yeah, I can't think of how exactly that level difference factor actually works, it might be just because of a cap like what you said. Seems like this EXP system made it impossible for a character to get overleveled.
On the example that I posted previously (lvl12 to lvl21), a level 15-16 Kyril doing the same kills also gets to level 21. Also, a level 6 Seneca on this same Dying Wish co-op gets 9 level-ups to level 15.
I never bothered to calculate exact EXP gains on my speedrun routing, I usually just focus on finding the fastest way to beat a fight without caring much for exact EXP gain. Though I do need to give Kyril level boosts for the Martin duel, and to get enough SKL to unlock the third spell on the last boss fight.
srd_27 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:08 am
I noticed that the effect of level difference between the two characters are retroactively updated within a single experience gain
I think this is not the case.
Example: I used the Andarc/Seneca Unite and kill 2 enemies. Andarc levels up, Seneca doesn't. Both get the same EXP.
But unite EXP is a whole different beast altogether ... just an example:
Andarc/Seneca unite (both LVL 2), killing different number of enemies (all LVL 3)
- 1 enemy: 392 EXP
- 2 enemies: 700 EXP
- 3 enemies: 1007 EXP
Each additionally killed enemy gives ~300 EXP, but the math behind it eludes me at the moment. Also, the EXP for a single enemy kill is less than what you get when you kill with a standard attack (410+ EXP) or rune attack (430+ EXP).
I'm focusing on attacks that target single enemies, which is a beast on its own, but will also keep these multi-hit attacks in mind (same for rune spells that hit multiple enemies).
Antimatzist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:15 am
I think this is not the case.
Example: I used the Andarc/Seneca Unite and kill 2 enemies. Andarc levels up, Seneca doesn't. Both get the same EXP.
But unite EXP is a whole different beast altogether ... just an example:
Andarc/Seneca unite (both LVL 2), killing different number of enemies (all LVL 3)
- 1 enemy: 392 EXP
- 2 enemies: 700 EXP
- 3 enemies: 1007 EXP
I see, I guess I wasn't really correct previously. Maybe my previous example is because Fortune Rune isn't just a straightforward 2x EXP multiplier.