Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

[tiki]

your flaw is assuming I care about who owns the rights and not what the original artist's intentions were

I sincerely doubt you have found anything in Suikoden 1-5 relating to an infinite number of paralell worlds (not specific worlds, like the World of Monsters and the World of Wings and Scales), or the One King, or the Mark of the Stars, or anything else in Tierkreis, but if you have I'd love to see it

I'm doubting really hard Muramaya envisioned anything for the series that has anything even remotely relating to what came out as Tierkreis, he was building a world and I doubt he would have made the contents of that world any less meaningful by saying "oh btw none of this matters because there's an infinite other worlds out there for us to explore with identical people in them with slight changes"

[Nikisaur]

KC is right. This is senseless. But Murayama hasn't been around for YEARS now. It's probably about time to move on. Also, if there isn't any connection between the 1-5 and TK except the title, then there's no connection to the original creator. This whole canon thing is pointless, and doesn't change a thing. If you don't like it, join the campaign for Suikoden VI. If all you're going to do is talk about how this wasn't what Murayama would have wanted - well, he had a decision and chose not to cross 'the Rubicon'. If this was referring to Konami as we suspect, he chose not to have a voice in Suikoden again. Move on.

[tiki]

I'll move on when Konami hires a writer who can be faithful enough to finish the world that Muramaya built up instead of trying to tear it down with their Mary-Sue self-insert world BS

they've given us the Island Nations

they've given us the Queendom of Falena

now all I'm waiting for is Harmonia

after that they can do whatever they want, the series will be finished and they can do me no more harm with their increasingly awful otherworldly adventures into terribleness

[KC_MCDOHL]

Okay, so make your feelings known to Konami then?

[Darkbeat]

Speaking of the campaign for Suikoden VI, if nothing else I am confident that the announcement of this game is an important step towards it. Consider it "testing the waters" if you will.

It seems to me that Konami actually care about the IP and take pride in it, but with the situation of JRPGs (especially outside Japan, which itself is suffering from various economic woes) being so tenuous they need to ensure there is still a market for Suikoden. That being so, it makes sense they wouldn't invest heavily in a large, mainline game, but work on an unnumbered spinoff on a portable with lower dev costs and a high userbase. If the game does well then that allows Konami to green-light more games and merchandising from the mainline.

The choice of the PSP was wise in this regard, as many of the issues that occurred in Tierkreis were as a result of the limitations of the DS (4 person parties, audio compression etc). The PSP however still has an established userbase (appeals to those reluctant to buy a new system) and is powerful enough to allow a full RPG experience with fairly reasonable dev costs. The only downer is that it's fairly dead outside Japan but for some enclaves in mainland Europe and that makes companies reluctant to bring the games over.

[Feldoon]

The only downer is that it's fairly dead outside Japan but for some enclaves in mainland Europe and that makes companies reluctant to bring the games over.

Well let's be fair, most Suikodens have had a limited print run anyway. I've only ever seen Suikoden IV on shelves, outside of preowned sections. I've never seen Tierkreis on shelves or in preowned.

So maybe if this new game has a limited print run that I can pre-order on an online retailer then I'll be happy.

[Vextor]

I'm not all that versed in the whole console powerstruggle, but as a casual consumer it seems there's no clear hegemony in terms of which console dominates the market. Previously, the PS1 and PS2 was the clear dominating force, so it was safe to make games for those consoles to capture your intended audience.

The situation seems far murkier now, especially when considering the market in Japan (which Konami seems to care more about), where traditional consoles are losing steam and hand-helds are emerging as the winner. However, even within hand-helds there's a strugle for dominance-- which would make it hard for a company to take the risk of committing huge resources.

The previous mindset seems to be "whatever console Square / Enix chooses would be safe for RPG development" but now that paradigm seems to have been washed away-- making the world a lot scarier for less powerful RPG franchises.

Making one game for the DS, and then for the PSP may indicate "feeling the waters" as someone else said, before committing the resources to develop a successor to the numbered series.

[patapi]

Well, the DS' successor is already out, whereas the PSP's is yet to come. It's quite a sensible choice really, if they weren't considering moving onto the next generation.

[daoster]

Well, this thread is certainly amusing!

The pissing and moaning and sense of entitlement coming from some Suikoden fans is second to only DQ fans!

There seems to be an assumption that if they DO a Suikoden VI, somehow it'll automatically be good and adhere to the beliefs of Murayama-sama (based on scribbled notes that he wrote behind a napkin 10 years ago, of course) and take place in the magical land of Harmonia and answer every single question we have!

But alas, Murayama is no longer with the company, and this isn't Suikoden VI....and I guess we're going to have to just deal with it.

After all, up until last week, most everybody had assumed that the Suikoden series was dead and I was about to give the eulogy when all of a sudden, BAM a new Suikoden is announced. Am I disappointed this isn't a mainline Suikoden? Sure, I am definitely disappointed, but at this point...beggars really can't be choosers.

The fact that this game is on PSP means it'll have a tough time coming out here in the States (or Europe), so if you were going to respond to Konami by not buying the game...good news! You might not even get the chance to deny them your money!

[Darkbeat]

Vextor makes a good point about consoles. In the days of the PS1 and PS2 it was a safe choice for developers as the JRPG market was almost entirely there. Now things are different not only because there is a more even split but because dev costs are that much higher (as Square Enix likes to remind us when mentioning HD Towns)

The PSP seems like the best choice all round for reigniting interest and building towards a big budget release, which is why I think this is a project we can all get behind.

[Rooks]

I agree too, with SquareSoft floundering, and with the fact that FF XIII was released for both Xbox360 and PS3, there is no clear console RPG leader. In the PS2 days, you released for Sony, and they would help with marketing and distribution costs in return for an exclusive release. Now, the benefits of a cross-platform release, i.e. the widest possible customer base, seem to outweigh the benefits of an exclusive release, i.e. greater profit margins per copy sold. This does not mean that Konami will release cross platform, as Microsoft and Sony are well aware of the situation and are likely trying to make exclusive releases more attractive to Distributors like Konami. This is yet another reason why a future Suikoden VI might be delayed.

While it seems that Console RPGs are floundering, I assert that this is more due to the fact that the games are lacking in innovation more than a major shift in the market itself. Though, I could be wrong.

Also, about the "canon" argument. Nikisaur is right, but it requires more context than a simple definition to settle the argument. I am going to post on General Discussion about what some people here are calling "canon," and it will settle the argument. This will sound arrogant, but I am pulling rank on you guys. I actually have a 3.8 GPA studying Literature, Creative Writing, and Literary Theory and an American University, so I know what I am talking about, and I intend to correct errors that have been made in the argument once and for all.

[JiggleBiscuits]

Canon in Literature: The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic.

Tierkreis is not authentic and never will be.

Neither will this new game.

Speaking of the campaign for Suikoden VI, if nothing else I am confident that the announcement of this game is an important step towards it. Consider it "testing the waters" if you will.

The only thing they're testing is whether they can continue to churn out frauds and whether people will buy them.

If this PSP game sells well, they'll have no reason to go back to a proper Suikoden game.

Also, about the "canon" argument. Nikisaur is right, but it requires more context than a simple definition to settle the argument. I am going to post on General Discussion about what some people here are calling "canon," and it will settle the argument. This will sound arrogant, but I am pulling rank on you guys. I actually have a 3.8 GPA studying Literature, Creative Writing, and Literary Theory and an American University, so I know what I am talking about, and I intend to correct errors that have been made in the argument once and for all.

So what? If your "definition" of canon includes Tierkreis, then it is wrong.

[Rooks]

My "definition" is canon is that it doesn't exist. Settle down. I am writing the post I mentioned now, although, after you read it, unless you want to apologize for your actions and tell me about how right I am, I won't listen to you.

[JiggleBiscuits]

Canon - the main Suikoden storyline of 1-5 + Tactics.

Not canon - Tierkreis and the PSP game.

The End.

Didn't take me very long to write this.

[Piisuke]

Well, this thread is certainly amusing!

The pissing and moaning and sense of entitlement coming from some Suikoden fans is second to only DQ fans!

There seems to be an assumption that if they DO a Suikoden VI, somehow it'll automatically be good and adhere to the beliefs of Murayama-sama (based on scribbled notes that he wrote behind a napkin 10 years ago, of course) and take place in the magical land of Harmonia and answer every single question we have!

But alas, Murayama is no longer with the company, and this isn't Suikoden VI....and I guess we're going to have to just deal with it.

Some of the comments I read just make me /facepalm myself. Here we are, a week ago, sad about the death of Suikoden. Konami was like: "Hey guys! Guess what?! BAM!" Everybody's like" Oh, cool"! and then there's a view individuals who want to ruin the party for everybody else. I always thought the Suikoden fans were proud fans. Sure, we might dislike certain games, decisions, or moments, but some of stuff that is posted here is borderline hatred towards any Suikoden game that isn't 100% correct. If that is what it takes for them to be happy, I'd rather not have a Suikoden VI at all, because that's just ridiculous.

We have no factual news about the game at all, other than it being in development and some people are trying to ruin everybody's fun and are just spewing fire. We're being accused of being wrong and 'fake' Suikoden fans, because unlike them, most of us like to wait until we know more. If they hate this game so much, based on that 47 seconds clip, it is best they disappear off this board, because no matter what, they'll constantly complain anyway. Konami owes them nothing and neither does Murayama. Heck, Murayama quit and left the series behind and decided not to come back. A simple fact.