New to Suikoden, my impression so far

[dap]

Suikoden 2 is sometimes called the best JRPG you have never played. I guess that's a way to say it's one of the best JRPG but it didn't get the attention it deserved. It has been in my todo list for over a decade and I have finally decided to give it a go, mostly because I'm getting bored with AAA gaming.

I am currently playing Suikoden 1 and got up to that army fight against Milich that you can not win, so I think I can finally give a legit opinion about this classic that has gathered a dedicated cult following.

My first thought during my playthrough was the game was probably initially developed for the SNES considering its 16bitish graphics, I eventually got used to the rough graphics but still having a very hard time with the unfriendly menus, especially when it comes to keeping track with all the char inventories/level/weapon-upgrade, it really is a chore. My opinion on the the story is... mixed. It's better than your average JRPG for sure, but overall the story telling is rather simplistic, dated and mediocre. You never get to do any meaningful choice and most recruited characters follow you after a couple of lines. The battle system could also use some polish and the army and dual systems could have been deeper than a rock-paper-scissor contest.

Apparently the consensus about Suikoden 2 is it improves everything gameplay wise, however the characters are overall more childish and target a younger audience compared to Suikoden 1.

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion here but based on what I have played so far of Suikoden 1, and what I've heard of Suikoden 2, I do not believe Suikoden 2 is the best JRPG ever. To me it doesn't even remotely come close to Valkyrie Profile (PSX) in terms of storytelling and gameplay depth. However Suikoden is definitely among the best JRPG and I'm having a lot of fun playing it and I intend to continue my playthrough and finish both Suikoden 1 and 2.

[Vextor]

You'll have to actually play Suikoden 2.
Suikoden 2 storytelling is quite a bit more complex compared to Suikoden 1, and touches themes that are not really for children.

Also, considering Suikoden 1 was released in 1995 in the very early stages if PS1's release before the platform has a huge following, its graphics are not that far below other contemporary titles. As far as I am aware, the first popular RPG that ever embraced 3D graphics was Wild Arms, and it was released at the end of 1996 in Japan. Even Wild Arms 1 used simile 16bit-ish graphics outside combat.

Murayama (creator of the Suikoden series) has also stated that the 3D technology back then was not at a standard he felt comfortable using, so he went with 2D sprites with some 3D elements utilized in combat. The game was never intended for SNES either, as it contains music tracks that would not be possible in SNES. It also uses some high-rendered graphics and as a result takes more than 300MBs of data -- it would never fit in an SNES cartridge.

I think your opinion has a good chance of being unpopular for sure, but not because of the conclusion you reach -- instead by the fact that you came to your conclusion without actually playing Suikoden 2. An opinion about Suikoden 2 cannot be "legit" unless you play the game.

[Antimatzist]

My first thought during my playthrough was the game was probably initially developed for the SNES considering its 16bitish graphics

There are some minor, but significant graphical features in Suikoden that set it apart from SNES JRPGs. The dynamic battle camera alone was really unique for its time (but of course pales in comparison to Final Fantasy VII which was released two years later). Also, the animations in battle are above most things on the SNES - remember, Suikoden was released the same year as Chrono Trigger and pretty much the second full JRPG for the PlayStation! Compare Suikoden to Beyond the Beyond and you'll see a huge difference, or to the polygon in-battle characters of Wild Arms. Keeping the sprite asthetics was the right move at the time, and they did extremely well I think.

The first Suikoden however has a very brownish color palette and could be a bit more colorful; something which Suikoden II drastically improved on.

I eventually got used to the rough graphics but still having a very hard time with the unfriendly menus, especially when it comes to keeping track with all the char inventories/level/weapon-upgrade, it really is a chore.

This is probably the biggest point of ciriticism I have towards the game, the menus are just bad. Also keeping track of equipment etc. is pretty tough.

It's better than your average JRPG for sure, but overall the story telling is rather simplistic, dated and mediocre. You never get to do any meaningful choice and most recruited characters follow you after a couple of lines.

Welcome to JRPGs? There are really few JRPGs that allow for meaningful choices, and I'd say Suikoden actually has a couple of them (compared to Final Fantasy VII, for instance, which has none).

Also, of course it's dated; it's a 28 year old game. I think the general scope and angle of the game's story easily sets it apart from the "a demon lord invades the world, help!" of the time with its focus on individual characters and a single nation.

The battle system could also use some polish and the army and dual systems could have been deeper than a rock-paper-scissor contest.

Battles in Suikoden are just too easy, and that's for basically every game in the series (maybe with the exceptions of III and Tactics). I agree, the game is on the lighter side when it comes to the battle systems. I think the duel system is perfect, though, as it's more of a dramatic scene than a gameplay element to me.

Apparently the consensus about Suikoden 2 is it improves everything gameplay wise, however the characters are overall more childish and target a younger audience compared to Suikoden 1.

I've never heard that opinion before and would heavily disagree; the plot of Suikoden II takes things (mostly) on a much more "mature" level with more depth, moralic decisions etc. I've never felt it would target a younger audience.

This sounds very defensive, but I think you need to play Suikoden with a historic eye. Even Final Fantasy VI sucks in many regards by today's standards, and that's regared as one of the best games ever (and don't get me started on Chrono Trigger, which I heavily dislike, but many people love). In the end, it also comes down to personal preference, and also what game you might have played first or when you were younger. But I also think it's weird to have an opinion about a game that you haven't even played yet.

[dap]

My first thought during my playthrough was the game was probably initially developed for the SNES considering its 16bitish graphics

There are some minor, but significant graphical features in Suikoden that set it apart from SNES JRPGs. The dynamic battle camera alone was really unique for its time (but of course pales in comparison to Final Fantasy VII which was released two years later). Also, the animations in battle are above most things on the SNES - remember, Suikoden was released the same year as Chrono Trigger and pretty much the second full JRPG for the PlayStation! Compare Suikoden to Beyond the Beyond and you'll see a huge difference, or to the polygon in-battle characters of Wild Arms. Keeping the sprite asthetics was the right move at the time, and they did extremely well I think.

The first Suikoden however has a very brownish color palette and could be a bit more colorful; something which Suikoden II drastically improved on.

Although it's just speculations, the highly compressed "crusty jpeg" graphics make me think it might have been originally developed for the SNES but since the PSX was the new cool stuff they might have decided during the game development (which usually takes years) to forward the release to the PSX with some adjustments and upgrades of course. That was probably a good decision considering most games that were released on the SNES, after the PSX aired, did not sell well.

It's better than your average JRPG for sure, but overall the story telling is rather simplistic, dated and mediocre. You never get to do any meaningful choice and most recruited characters follow you after a couple of lines.

Welcome to JRPGs? There are really few JRPGs that allow for meaningful choices, and I'd say Suikoden actually has a couple of them (compared to Final Fantasy VII, for instance, which has none).

Also, of course it's dated; it's a 28 year old game. I think the general scope and angle of the game's story easily sets it apart from the "a demon lord invades the world, help!" of the time with its focus on individual characters and a single nation.

Maybe I should have expanded my grief on the plot and storytelling. I agree that almost every JRPG back then had a childish setting and targeted very young audience and yes Suikoden is different in that regard, however the quality of the storytelling is pretty bad and amateurish. It's hard to explain but things just didn't add up, that's something you have to feel but if I had to explain it rationally I'd say a lot of things felt forced. For example, you are the son of one of the most powerful generals of an empire, yet you get banished just because your injured childhood friend sought refuge in your house for the night? That one really felt forced and wouldn't work out in a realistic setting. And barely a couple of days later you are the Rebel Army leaders? Just because Odessa has seen something special in your eyes? Once again that felt very forced and cheesy.

This sounds very defensive, but I think you need to play Suikoden with a historic eye. Even Final Fantasy VI sucks in many regards by today's standards, and that's regared as one of the best games ever (and don't get me started on Chrono Trigger, which I heavily dislike, but many people love). In the end, it also comes down to personal preference, and also what game you might have played first or when you were younger. But I also think it's weird to have an opinion about a game that you haven't even played yet.

You have every right to defend the game and if you read carefully I never said the game sucks, I actually think it's part of the top tier PSX JRPGs, it's better than many JRPG I played on the PSX back then such as Wild ARMs, Dragon Warrior 7 or FF8. But at this point I am very skeptical about S1 or S2 having even remotely a tiny chance of beating the masterpiece Valkyrie Profile for the title of greatest JRPG ever. Valkyrie Profile which also happens to be a PSX title, is just on a whole other level. In VP you also get to recruit characters for your army, and while there are only a couple dozens characters to recruit, everyone interaction with a new character is epic, it's quality over quantity. The storytelling in VP is on a whole other level and interactions between characters always feel plausible. No point expanding further on VP since this is a Suikoden forum but I just recommend you to try VP and see for yourself how high it set the bar.

[Antimatzist]

Although it's just speculations, the highly compressed "crusty jpeg" graphics make me think it might have been originally developed for the SNES but since the PSX was the new cool stuff they might have decided during the game development (which usually takes years) to forward the release to the PSX with some adjustments and upgrades of course.

No, the development story of Suikodne is actually interesting. Konami wanted to make their own console in the early 90s, and put together some development teams, and after they scrapped the idea of an own console, they started developing for the PS1. You also see this "crusty jpeg" style in Vandal Hearts which was just released a couple of months after Suikoden.

tl;dr: no, it was never intended for SNES.

I'm not gonna defend the writing in the game, because it's definitely rushed, but this forced order of events is imo a shounen/JRPG trope. And I mean you can't logically write a 16 year old becoming the leader of a nationwide rebel movement except well, "it's destiny". In any case, the hero didn't get banished for helping his injured childhood friend, but he was on the run because Windy wanted the rune which Ted gave to him. And I mean if soldiers come to your place and want to forcibly take away your best friend, I'd probably run too? General McDohl was also not in Gregminster at the time.

Also, the events of Suikoden take place over a span of several (2? 3?) years, so there's not just a couple of days between the events.

[Vextor]

I am not quite sure what is the rush with trying to judge Suikoden as a whole when you haven't played Suikoden 2 at all, with an opinion purely based on graphics.
Even with Suikdoen 1, I don't think you have read the plot very carefully as you have the facts wrong. Likely you are rushing through the game without reading the dialogue too closely. You can miss a lot of details when you rush through Suikdoen 1 -- it's not a terribly long game and games back then don't really have too much extra content besides the main quests.

For Suikoden 1, even I really didn't find it interesting after I picked it up back in 1995. I played it for a few hours and I was put-off by the graphics. 6 months later I was bored and started playing again and then I got hooked because I realized the game was trying to describe a story that was grander in scale than I originally thought. Suikoden 2 was an improvement in all regards, it's story-telling is legendary.

I have played Valkyrie Profile but it never stuck with me -- I know it has a strong fan-base but I think the game in generally gears towards hard-core gamers who really like something challenging. Suikoden is definitely not for that type of audience as the battles are very easy (which is why fans have created a patch to make the battles more interesting). This may be why the series has an disproportionate following among women, which is very rare for the RPG genre.

[Calvin]

Determining "Best ever" is a subjective and rather pointless exercise best suited for websites and programs that need views in my opinion. Is it the best ever? I don't know. I just know that the Suikoden games are among my very favorite, especially Suikoden II.