Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

If you are stuck in the Dunan Unification Wars; or wish for more details on the gameplay systems, this is the place.
JiN88
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:40 pm

Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:57 am

Before Suikoden 2 JP was officially released in 17/12/1998, there was a demo version that was packaged along with Metal Gear solid in 3/09/1998. In North America there was also a EN demo version when released with Vandal Hearts 2 in 30/11/1999, but that was after the official EN release in 31/08/1999. This makes the JP demo version the earliest possible version of the game in retail by about 3 months.

The game file is also much smaller at 220MB while the EN demo is about 501MB (a tad bit more than the completed full game). Since it was only a demo , a lot of stuff were unpolished since the game was never at it's complete state, but at least exploring it would give a little insight on how the game was supposedly meant to be.

Compared to both JP and EN demos, both are similar as you were only meant to play through until the Mist monster and the Battle mode. You can use the wiki http://suikosource.com/games/gs2/indepth/demo.php to get an idea but some quick difference in JP demos are:

1) Some NPCs uses different sprites.
2) The dogs are puppies and the 2 cats in Toto village uses 1 color (Normal game have 2 different colors)
3) The enemies are slightly harder.
4)The bridge at Kuskus Town doesn't exist.
5) In the Battle mode the JP demo only have half the roster available (Unavailable: Killey, Siera, Genshu, Wakaba, L.C.CChan, and Sigfiend).
6) Battle animation looks left polished in comparison.
7) It's in Japanese. duh.

Other than that there isn't much difference. In the EN demo you can bypass the Mist monster and proceed as normal and (from my experience), you can only reach up to the point you were about to receive the talisman at Muse when Pilikia asks you to buy it for her before the game crashes; the game does contains all the data of the completed game (but some are in Spanish). In the JP demo, you can also skip the mist monster.

Bypassing it and out to the world map any enemy encounter will cause crashes. But once you reach Kyaro Town you can explore and is in a near complete state.

https://youtu.be/XqVzE1iVw3w

A lot of stuff are missing and colors are mixed but that's pretty much it. It's also good to know the top right table at the inn wasn't hiding anything as in the completed game there is no collision there. You can try saving but all you get is Hix's sprite sheet. The town is mostly complete most likely because it was used in the opening scene a lot.

You can trigger Jowy and family and Nanami scenes but since it being a demo some of their action isn't present.
https://youtu.be/MfP5h1HcZL0

The main take away here is Jowy's brother uses a younger child model. That is pretty much more impactful since he looks older in the completed version when he disown you.


https://youtu.be/MqSV-Wnw_8c

Nanami's encounter is pretty much the same but less dramatic. The game crashes just before Nanami joins you so you can't progress any further.

And don't bother trying to reach Tenzan Pass since the warp point isn't working.

All Characters


Surprisingly enough you can use the enable all character gameshark code when you go into the Battle Mode at Leona.
All characters..jpg

Some characters have their own portrait or some uses a placeholder with a 'sir' or their name text. In combat it can be a mix of using their actual character or uses another as a placeholder. The squirrels are funny as all the developers did was change their color and stamp a number on their head; in combat they all uses the same Mukumuku sprites (unite attack crashes the game).



Runes

Normally you can only have Fire, Water, Wind, and Pale Gate rune; there are others but they don't level up. By hacking to enable some and maximizing your stats, the runes can become available. There are some that has less spells than normal even with max stats, like Pale Gate Rune for example, and some just crashes the game when attempting to cast:
Bright Shield Black Sword Rune.jpg
Pale Gate Rune.jpg
Despite Bright Shield and Black Sword Rune spells will crash the game, in the game files there already is the FMV for their last spells.


I'll only post the ones that does work since they look different than the end product.

Fire Rage Rune

https://youtu.be/iHNSvndA8p0


Dancing Flame looks less polished.

Water Flowing Rune

https://youtu.be/kOFw9KrlgzQ

Wind Cyclone Rune

https://youtu.be/qGBXKVrylZE
https://youtu.be/3se18kyyjPA

The last 2 spells are funny when it's incomplete.



Misc

By messing with the Talisman and changing the value through Cheatengine, I was able to warp to certain town and areas. Unfortunately most of them just loads the town and nothing can be interacted with, crashes upon entering, and in one instant loading into Cave of the Wind entrance just loads the areas sprite sheet. There is one place however that pique my interest:

https://youtu.be/l3sSmi2G2Y8

It's easier to just make a video about it. I do not know what's the purpose and it seems too organized to be a glitch or whatever. I tried looking for it in the completed version but wasn't able to find it since it seems to be gone. The best I can guess is it was a very very early debug room that was used during development and was deleted soon after as the area looks similar to FF7 Debug room.

00B7CA1F Byte 06
00B7CA20 Byte 19

(Previously it was (06,19) but found out it was suppose to be (0B, 00). The previous values still works.)

M_EAT.STR ?

https://youtu.be/WPycKcKomwI

In the game files there is a FMV listed as M_EAT.STR. Going by the next entry which is M_FIR.STR (for Final Flame opening FMV (Fire rune) that you can see in the Fire Rage Rune video), it's suggested to be for a Rune for either Earth Rune or Soul Eater Rune (Earth is more likely based on how it looks).

In the JP completed version and all version to the latest PSP version (2010) it has it listed as ROCK.STR. It was thought to be for the Sajah Rock opening but looking at this it might not be the case. Omnigamer did suggest it was a FMV for a different game when in development but there doesn't seem to be any thing to suggest that.


That's pretty much all there is. If there's anything I want to edit or add I'll do it later.
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Last edited by JiN88 on Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MasterGrand
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby MasterGrand » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:34 pm

Before Suikoden 2 JP was officially released in 17/12/1998, there was a demo version that was packaged along with Metal Gear solid in 3/09/1998. In North America there was also a EN demo version when released with Vandal Hearts 2 in 30/11/1999, but that was after the official EN release in 31/08/1999. This makes the JP demo version the earliest possible version of the game in retail by about 3 months.

The game file is also much smaller at 220MB while the EN demo is about 501MB (a tad bit more than the completed full game). Since it was only a demo , a lot of stuff were unpolished since the game was never at it's complete state, but at least exploring it would give a little insight on how the game was supposedly meant to be.

Compared to both JP and EN demos, both are similar as you were only meant to play through until the Mist monster and the Battle mode. You can use the wiki http://suikosource.com/games/gs2/indepth/demo.php to get an idea but some quick difference in JP demos are:

1) Some NPCs uses different sprites.
2) The dogs are puppies and the 2 cats in Toto village uses 1 color (Normal game have 2 different colors)
3) The enemies are slightly harder.
4)The bridge at Kuskus Town doesn't exist.
5) In the Battle mode the JP demo only have half the roster available (Unavailable: Killey, Siera, Genshu, Wakaba, L.C.CChan, and Sigfiend).
6) Battle animation looks left polished in comparison.
7) It's in Japanese. duh.

Other than that there isn't much difference. In the EN demo you can bypass the Mist monster and proceed as normal and (from my experience), you can only reach up to the point you were about to receive the talisman at Muse when Pilikia asks you to buy it for her before the game crashes; the game does contains all the data of the completed game (but some are in Spanish). In the JP demo, you can also skip the mist monster.

Bypassing it and out to the world map any enemy encounter will cause crashes. But once you reach Kyaro Town you can explore and is in a near complete state.

https://youtu.be/XqVzE1iVw3w

A lot of stuff are missing and colors are mixed but that's pretty much it. It's also good to know the top right table at the inn wasn't hiding anything as in the completed game there is no collision there. You can try saving but all you get is Hix's sprite sheet. The town is mostly complete most likely because it was used in the opening scene a lot.

You can trigger Jowy and family and Nanami scenes but since it being a demo some of their action isn't present.
https://youtu.be/MfP5h1HcZL0

The main take away here is Jowy's brother uses a younger child model. That is pretty much more impactful since he looks older in the completed version when he disown you.


https://youtu.be/MqSV-Wnw_8c

Nanami's encounter is pretty much the same but less dramatic. The game crashes just before Nanami joins you so you can't progress any further.

And don't bother trying to reach Tenzan Pass since the warp point isn't working.

All Characters


Surprisingly enough you can use the enable all character gameshark code when you go into the Battle Mode at Leona.
All characters..jpg


Some characters have their own portrait or some uses a placeholder with a 'sir' or their name text. In combat it can be a mix of using their actual character or uses another as a placeholder. The squirrels are funny as all the developers did was change their color and stamp a number on their head; in combat they all uses the same Mukumuku sprites (unite attack crashes the game).



Runes

Normally you can only have Fire, Water, Wind, and Pale Gate rune; there are others but they don't level up. By hacking to enable some and maximizing your stats, the runes can become available. There are some that has less spells than normal even with max stats, like Pale Gate Rune for example, and some just crashes the game when attempting to cast:
Bright Shield Black Sword Rune.jpg
Pale Gate Rune.jpg

Despite Bright Shield and Black Sword Rune spells will crash the game, in the game files there already is the FMV for their last spells.


I'll only post the ones that does work since they look different than the end product.

Fire Rage Rune

https://youtu.be/iHNSvndA8p0


Dancing Flame looks less polished.

Water Flowing Rune

https://youtu.be/kOFw9KrlgzQ

Wind Cyclone Rune

https://youtu.be/qGBXKVrylZE
https://youtu.be/3se18kyyjPA

The last 2 spells are funny when it's incomplete.



Misc

By messing with the Talisman and changing the value through Cheatengine, I was able to warp to certain town and areas. Unfortunately most of them just loads the town and nothing can be interacted with, crashes upon entering, and in one instant loading into Cave of the Wind entrance just loads the areas sprite sheet. There is one place however that pique my interest:

https://youtu.be/l3sSmi2G2Y8

It's easier to just make a video about it. I do not know what's the purpose and it seems too organized to be a glitch or whatever. I tried looking for it in the completed version but wasn't able to find it since it seems to be gone. The best I can guess is it was a very very early debug room that was used during development and was deleted soon after as the area looks similar to FF7 Debug room.

00B7CA1F Byte 06
00B7CA20 Byte 19

M_EAT.STR ?

https://youtu.be/WPycKcKomwI

In the game files there is a FMV listed as M_EAT.STR. Going by the next entry which is M_FIR.STR (for Final Flame opening FMV (Fire rune) that you can see in the Fire Rage Rune video), it's suggested to be for a Rune for either Earth Rune or Soul Eater Rune (Earth is more likely based on how it looks).

In the JP completed version and all version to the latest PSP version (2010) it has it listed as ROCK.STR. It was thought to be for the Sajah Rock opening but looking at this it might not be the case. Omnigamer did suggest it was a FMV for a different game when in development but there doesn't seem to be any thing to suggest that.


That's pretty much all there is. If there's anything I want to edit or add I'll do it later.
I wonder why waste your time with Suikoden II Demo ?, Why not working on Suikoden II full game....etc, Anyway I have question can you replace Fire rune from Suikoden II Demo JP to full game Suikoden II ?

Good luck! :D

JiN88
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:40 pm

Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:35 pm

I'm not a programmer so stuff that I know are limited from what I can learn here and there. Besides, learding is fun.
can you replace Fire rune from Suikoden II Demo JP to full game Suikoden II ?
I don't understand the question. You mean change the animation etc..? not sure. I don't see any reason why you would want to since the stuff are the same, probably the damage is a bit different: Fire's Rune Fire Wall deals 120 in JP demo but 150 in the completed version, for example.

I didn't share it since I haven't double checked all the damage with the JP version yet.

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Pyriel
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby Pyriel » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:49 pm

It's interesting to see how the game developed for a start. A fair few demos from this era were also nearly complete copies of the game with impediments put in place to prevent players progressing beyond a certain point. It's not inconceivable that a demo could contain content that was ultimately cut, and in some cases they could give some indication of what the intention for pared down or gutted features might have been. It's not terribly likely, but it's still worth a look.

To be honest, though, most demos that were like that were essentially the finalized version of the game. I don't recall many that were from early- or mid-development, that also had experimental features.

JiN88
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:45 am

https://imgur.com/oGpQffJ

https://imgur.com/lD0uXN9

Was the Tablet before the Double Beat Boss suppose to be outside? The absence of the Double Beat Boss statue is understandably missing since the demo is an earlier built and probably not made yet, but the tablet seems intentionally to be outside first. The 2nd pic posted is the Sindar Ruin for comparison before the (completed game) boss; it's the same near the entrance so it seems they just copy pasted the room.

https://imgur.com/7Tq4wOP

https://imgur.com/69dEWD3

Also, had Riou, at any point of the game, wore a blue bandana? I don't remember. This somehow popped up when I was messing around the Sindar Ruin area and there are 6 of them. No collision. Most of the area are not complete/crash so it's the best I could do.

Edit: Added the last picture for a side by side comparison.
Last edited by JiN88 on Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Raww Le Klueze
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:49 am

No but the near final concept art of Riou had him in a blue bandana before they changed it to the circlet. The sprite is in the final game as well.

You can see the concept art on page 42 of the Genso Suikoden II 108 Stars Characters Guide.
https://archive.org/details/gensousuiko ... icialguide
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.

JiN88
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:19 am

So I found another Weird Debug-like Room.

Previously I found one (06,19) but it turns out it belongs to (0B, 00). I'll edit it above later.


https://imgur.com/CMtRBJw


This new one is (0B, 01).


There are no area beyond it as far as I can tell. The NPCs are Anita, Gengen, and Old Man (no idea why this was picked). They all can be pushed and interacted with.
They all have a single line of text.
It's almost as if they are in an army formation.


All the Anita's have no text and interacting with it seems to try loading something before crashing the game.

https://imgur.com/YUxf3iF

All Gengens have single line of text. Picture edited for easier reading. Same as Anita's, after finishing the dialogue the game seems to load something before crashing.

https://imgur.com/P4ekv1T


All the Old man are the same, except for the last left side one that has no text. Zoom in for a better look.

Edit 1: just a small correction. The last left side Old man just reset the room, so it has some sort of reset function. Turns out I just needed to leave it running a bit longer.

Edit 2: Some of the Old Men will try to load a bunch of unknowns but after a while the operation (seemingly crashing) but will end eventually and I could walk around.

Some, or most others, after a bit, will just loads back to the title screen intro.

Need translation, please. From what I can tell from Chinese it has something to do with God-something-Village, and it has been used a lot here.
Last edited by JiN88 on Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Raww Le Klueze
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:13 pm

Looks like the place name is 神様の村 which means Village of God/God's village. Seems to be testing functions.
Gengen says
"I am the sound change god"
"I am the sound test god"
"I am the window change god"
"I am the unit change god" <- he uses the same word as Apple does when you rearrange war units

Some of what the old man says follows the same format "I am the god of <something>!" in the middle row
Library, Suggestion box, Restaurant, Cooking Battles, Guardian Deity and Peeping...? He also laughs after that one. Bath scenes maybe?

Top says "The detective god is here!"
Bottom "Fishing god here!" "I'm the god of tablets" <- same word as the plates found in the Sindar ruins, presumably tests that?

Last one on the bottom I don't know, he just seems to be making noise cause it just says BABANBABANBANBAN - HAAPIBANONO.
It might be a reference to this, but don't ask me why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haahIIp ... UICHIENDOH first line is the same and the second is almost the same
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.

JiN88
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:40 pm

Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:56 am

I'm just sharing this early because I think it's cute.


https://imgur.com/XvZnpjL

I finally found Sindar Ruin 3 (boss room) and found this lil' sprite. Turns out there are 3 empty rooms (crashes the game) before it and it's at the fourth room (different from the final game); the room is the same as the finished product, just in an unpolished state.


I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a placeholder for the boss, or was it supposed to be something like a gate since it has no collision.
https://imgur.com/qE8JbFl

I loaded into vram and there is only a single sprite for it. I checked the final version and it's not there. And, before you ask, no, Double Head boss does not seem to be loaded when I tried.

And yes, it has 3 heads. Make what you will with that information. Maybe that Chimera monster was supposed to be here?

JiN88
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:00 am

https://imgur.com/B3qV0nK

So, uh, I guess the Sindar Ruin entrance's statues were supposed to be gendered (no boobies), and snakelike? Maybe the Sindar people were supposed to be Lamias?

https://imgur.com/Yo1O9O2

Since I'm sharing the entrance I might as well show what the Inn looks like. Probably just being nitpicky but the White Deer Inn's hanging sign was supposed to be on the wall.

JiN88
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:01 am

So this is more of a passing curiosity that I had a long time ago and I think I finally have an answer:

http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewt ... ed#p159452

http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewt ... lit=unused


In the JP demo you can get a skit ending that is the same as the posts above. But, there are somehow 4 maids and a Riou loaded just out of bounds. So after realizing I could move the NPCs around, I did just that. The NPCs are actually loaded, just either put to the side or switched off (Viki and Mukumuku). Below is roughly where they are and turned on.
Jp demo end.jpg
Now, regarding the 4 maids and a Riou, turns out they may just happen to be triggers to skip the cutscence. You can't move Riou at all but you can have him interact with the one in front of him. Since you're always facing Maid 4 face to face, it does just that; I just removed Maid 4 and the skip didn't happen. I tried all sorts things like having Riou turned to other maids, get Maid 4 to face a different way, or moving Riou far away, or a bunch of similar situation and it seems interacting with any of them is the key. As long as Riou is facing face to face with any of the maids and interacted (talk button) the skip will happen.

Seems to be a game design trick where they load things out of bounds so certain interactions can happen.

I know it's lame but at least I have a partial answer. Not sure if there are any triggers that may come out after interacting with any of the maids though.

Also, the skit has Mekumeku in there and I can see him after loading it with vram, but I tried turning all invisible Npcs (there about 6) and they don't even seem to have sprites with with them (I tried giving them sprites and they just doesn't seem to do anything).
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JiN88
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:36 am

I forgot to ask this since it seems unimportant.
Message when getting flour.png
Does anyone knows what it says? The message is from the weird function area. What is interesting is the Anita does have a message when you get the flour with Gengen/Tuta. The Anita becomes unresponsive after when you get there with Jowy/Eliie/etc..
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JiN88
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:42 am

Happy Chinese New year, Everyone. Since I had time I decided to try exploring it again and there are some interesting finds.

https://imgur.com/Ajd1yLB
https://imgur.com/pUlMpi5

Lady Anabelle room (the area where she was killed) used to have another section. And the path where Jowy was suppose to run to wasn't there.

https://imgur.com/QXvDsrR
The railings seems to slightly different. The black rectangles I think were suppose to be pillars.

https://imgur.com/vT0ngk0

This is from Cave of the Wind. The area was still under development but often times you could find these 'arrows' that the developers left around. Probably to indicate others on the team on what to focus on next.

https://imgur.com/51grOn8

This is from Greenhill the resident area. The house in the retail version is an item shop. So either it was suppose to be planned to be a Rune shop or it was only used as a placeholder. Most likely the latter since a rune shop there wouldn't make much sense in the first place.

https://imgur.com/d3jJH82

Freddy's house was taken over by trees.

https://imgur.com/5CsDrZm

This is from Tinto City, the blacksmith area. It just seems slightly different originally.

https://imgur.com/MXYobGa

Secret room is Radat seems different. The reason I checked it out was because of an old rumor there was a bigger quest beyond the doors there.

https://imgur.com/D0jJ7zF

The guards uses this model. This would explain why the NPC in the function room.

https://imgur.com/CZv6BWd

The church where you fight Neclord really had a small budget back then.


There's more https://imgur.com/a/o3lKqW9#XvZnpjL but not really worth explaining.

I would have wanted to explore Sajah, L'Renouille, and other later stages of the game but it seems they simply doesn't exist.
Last edited by JiN88 on Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

srd_27
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby srd_27 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:50 am


There's more https://imgur.com/user/JJDD123 but not really worth explaining.
This link doesn't seem to work, doesn't show anything on it for me.

JiN88
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Re: Suikoden 2 JP demo analysis

Postby JiN88 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:12 am

Should be fixed. Not sure what was wrong so I just make it into an album.


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