SoD guides spoiling story twists

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srd_27
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SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by srd_27 »

This is a legit issue of SoD guides spoiling important story moments. Just happened in here for example, newcomer to the series got spoiled on Gremio's fate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Suikoden/comme ... /so_upset/

Looking at these guides again, here are parts that I feel contain unsafe spoilers/hints:
- Right at the top of Suikoden 1 recruit guide, I straight away see that Gremio will die, and Ted + Odessa will leave the party permanently.
- "Later in the game, Pahn will have to battle General Teo." This is also a huge spoiler. Can just make this more subtle like "Later have to win a story duel."
- Jowy shown as "N/A" on the star section is also sort of a hint. Suggest to do it like the S5 guide where Sialeeds isn't shown at all.

Ideally if I'm creating a guide like these, I'll hide the automatic recruits under a black highlight or a spoiler tag, so there's no chance of spoiling any new players. For example, seeing Kiba's name on the guide spoils that he'll switch sides. Probably will be hard to implement though.

Also an unrelated complaint, but the Humphrey & Futch recruitment missed the obvious warning that you'll miss the 108 star rewards if they aren't recruited during the Matilda story arc.
thcrock
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by thcrock »

I'm thinking about what could replace Gremio/Ted/Odessa. Gremio's spoiler information seems important; maybe a spoiler tag? I'm not sure Ted and Odessa's notes are important for something called a recruitment guide.
Maybe hide many things with spoiler tags, and then have an easy button at the top to toggle showing and hiding of spoilers for the whole page?
srd_27
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by srd_27 »

thcrock wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:58 pm I'm thinking about what could replace Gremio/Ted/Odessa. Gremio's spoiler information seems important; maybe a spoiler tag? I'm not sure Ted and Odessa's notes are important for something called a recruitment guide.
Maybe hide many things with spoiler tags, and then have an easy button at the top to toggle showing and hiding of spoilers for the whole page?
I don't even think you need Gremio's spoiler info there, it doesn't help you recruit characters in any way. A section at the end showing the 108 star bonus could replace that, and with a spoiler tag or a huge spoiler warning before showing the bonus.
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sticky-runes
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by sticky-runes »

If you want to attempt gaining all 108 stars on your first time playing a Suikoden game, then you're going to risk spoilers. That's why its better to play without a guide, and then if you enjoyed the game enough, then go for 100% on your second playthrough.

For a bare minimum SoD guide, I guess one solution would be to write joins automatically* and then at the top or bottom of the page, have written *this character may part ways with you at a certain point of the story, but they will rejoin you eventually.
thcrock
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by thcrock »

I do agree its hard to use a recruitment guide and not get spoiled, but the Gremio thing is right up there at the top. I loaded the page, not looking for it, and in like a third of a second my eyes scanned 'Gremio dies'.

My general thought it that we put a disclaimer on the top of these recruitment guides that they will contain spoilers due to their very nature (see, the Kiba thing). And then just find a way for characters with spoilers at the top (especially Gremio, in fact maybe just Gremio) to make it so their spoiler is not so visible. Whether it be rewriting it, clicking something for the spoiler, or the asterisk/footnote thing
Antimatzist
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by Antimatzist »

On my personal page, we used bright grey (white background) to write spoiler tags. That's an easy workaround.
srd_27 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:24 am
thcrock wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:58 pm I'm thinking about what could replace Gremio/Ted/Odessa. Gremio's spoiler information seems important; maybe a spoiler tag? I'm not sure Ted and Odessa's notes are important for something called a recruitment guide.
Maybe hide many things with spoiler tags, and then have an easy button at the top to toggle showing and hiding of spoilers for the whole page?
I don't even think you need Gremio's spoiler info there, it doesn't help you recruit characters in any way. A section at the end showing the 108 star bonus could replace that, and with a spoiler tag or a huge spoiler warning before showing the bonus.
I always interpreted it as a 108 SoD guide. Gremio's info is actually not crucial, because his event happens automaically, but for Pahn, you gotta write it down somewhere. The thing about the first Suikoden is: after Gremio dies, some people probably think that the fight against Teo is an unwinnable story duel. Even I, knowing that it's coming and preparing, struggle sometimes to keep him alive due to bad RNG. Realizing at the end of the game that you could have kept him alive and not having all 108 SoDs in the end somehow then destroys the point of using a guide on your first try, doesn't it?

tl;dr: I think such a guide should have spoilers, but they should not be displayed directly. And I think that the spoilers should be directly at the character info, maybe in addition to an additional "Best ending" guide.
srd_27
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by srd_27 »

In general, I think expecting players not to use a guide on the first playthrough is unrealistic, most people wouldn't be willing to spend the time to do multiple playthroughs. This also made me think that a [Missable] tag on all the SoD guides will be useful as well.
Antimatzist wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:21 am On my personal page, we used bright grey (white background) to write spoiler tags. That's an easy workaround.

I always interpreted it as a 108 SoD guide. Gremio's info is actually not crucial, because his event happens automaically, but for Pahn, you gotta write it down somewhere. The thing about the first Suikoden is: after Gremio dies, some people probably think that the fight against Teo is an unwinnable story duel. Even I, knowing that it's coming and preparing, struggle sometimes to keep him alive due to bad RNG. Realizing at the end of the game that you could have kept him alive and not having all 108 SoDs in the end somehow then destroys the point of using a guide on your first try, doesn't it?

tl;dr: I think such a guide should have spoilers, but they should not be displayed directly. And I think that the spoilers should be directly at the character info, maybe in addition to an additional "Best ending" guide.
I see what you did there on your page, that's a good workaround.
https://www.suikoversum.de/sui1,charakt ... erung.html

Yes, Pahn's info is crucial for a 108 recruitment guide, though the bit about "fighting Teo" can be removed without compromising the accuracy.
thcrock
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by thcrock »

The S1 guide is partially updated now. Still thinking of how to update Milich's and Leon's entries, though I think it's less important to change those as they are far enough down the page that a person would probably be reading them after Gremio has died
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Raww Le Klueze
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by Raww Le Klueze »

- Jowy shown as "N/A" on the star section is also sort of a hint. Suggest to do it like the S5 guide where Sialeeds isn't shown at all.
A hint towards what that wouldn't also be hinted towards with him being conspicuously absent from the list of stars entirely, especially when said list contains 7 other N/A characters?

This is a "hint" that can only be solved by already knowing the story, which renders the whole spoiler thing moot. Leaving him as N/A suggests that he's like one of the other 7 special characters, not anything specific story related. Removing him entirely still "hints" towards him not being a star except now you're hinting even stronger towards him not being an ally.
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srd_27
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Re: SoD guides spoiling story twists

Post by srd_27 »

Raww Le Klueze wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:48 am
- Jowy shown as "N/A" on the star section is also sort of a hint. Suggest to do it like the S5 guide where Sialeeds isn't shown at all.
A hint towards what that wouldn't also be hinted towards with him being conspicuously absent from the list of stars entirely, especially when said list contains 7 other N/A characters?

This is a "hint" that can only be solved by already knowing the story, which renders the whole spoiler thing moot. Leaving him as N/A suggests that he's like one of the other 7 special characters, not anything specific story related. Removing him entirely still "hints" towards him not being a star except now you're hinting even stronger towards him not being an ally.
It's much less likely for a new player to notice someone is unusually absent from the list when the character is simply hidden from the list, compared to when they're clearly shown as "N/A" right at the top of the list before the player gets to see any of the optional recruitments.

This is a recruitment guide after all, whatever happened with Jowy is irrelevant in recruiting 108 stars + other optional non-star recruits.
This also ties with my idea of hiding automatic recruits with some sort of spoiler tag, as those info isn't required for anyone trying to get all 108 stars.
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