Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

[Zer0]

no they didn't shape it, they funded it

money does not mean vision or creativity, money just means you're rich

if I gave Coldplay a million dollars to make me an anti-war song to play on the radio for profit it doesn't mean I am an artistic visionary, it just means I'm a jerk with funding

if I then hire someone else to change the song drastically to make it's meaning to be nuking Iran it doesn't change or invalidate the meaning behind the first song

it means they're two entirely different songs

see: Muramaya-canon Suikoden (1-5) and Konami's brandname milking-canon (Tierkreis, most likely this new game)

Suikoden would not have proceeded past Muramayas daydreams were it not for Konami, if you want to believe that Muramaya developed and coded the entire series on his own with no help or vision from the rest of the team who only sat around and ate bagels than you're dreaming.

Also, your coldplay example is another example that not only makes no sense, it has no relation to the discussion at hand. This entire thread has been nothing but you and Jigglebiscuits putting down a fandom excited to see that their favourite series has not completely been left for dead.

If you want to pretend that Suikoden ended at V, than do that. Just don't open any threads not related to Suikodens I to V and your perfect world won't collapse in on itself.

[tiki]

why do you keep bringing up the fact that Konami funded Suikoden as if I'm supposed to be somehow grateful for that

Konami is like a crazy ex-girlfriend

you had some good times together and they promised good things in the future, but somewhere along the line they decided they wanted an open relationship with the STD riddled prostitute down the street

they completely failed to deliver on what they were building up to and they deserve only shame and disapproval for it

your perfect world won't collapse in on itself.

my perfect world involves Suikoden VI ending the series with Harmonia and everything being tidied up

these horrible games and their decision to disband the actual Suikoden team to focus on these other games is keeping me from that

[dragons_descent4]

my perfect world involves Suikoden VI ending the series with Harmonia and everything being tidied up

these horrible games and their decision to disband the actual Suikoden team to focus on these other games is keeping me from that

I agree with that,I want the build up on Harmonia to finally go somewhere.

I liked Tierkreis though,as its own game,if it were called something else and I played it I would feel the same way about it as I do now. It was good,not Suikoden good but still a pretty good game.

[JiggleBiscuits]

Since he doesn't work there now, I doubt Konami particularly care what he thinks - hence the two new games.

Because he hates Tierkreis right?

No, because he doesn't work for them.

Why would they care?

[lungfish]

that decision lies with Konami, even if they have lost their visionaries and tierkreis came across as a bad fanfic, it's still Canon.

http://suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 54#p133654

nope

Konami is a publisher, not a writer or a creator of stories

Tierkreis is only canon to Tierkreis's world, something that has nothing to do with Suikoden 1-5's world

Suikoden 1-5 is canon to Suikoden 1-5's world, something Muramaya lovingly crafted and set up the blueprints for

anyone who tries to combine them is a talentless coattail riding hack

see: Tierkreis's writer

Suikoden belongs to Konami. Anything they choose to do with their brand is official. It's canon. It's really that cut and dry. I'm sure if Muraymaya really felt that his brainchild was being raped, he would have spoken up about it.

What I believe Tiki is saying, Zer0, is that Tierkreis clearly does not fall into the same realm, literally, that Suikoden 1-5 does. I for one and I'm sure the majority posters on this forum mostly, if not exclusively, care about THAT Suikoden. The Suikoden with Dunan and Harmonia and Falena etc.. Tierkreis is simply not a part of that ongoing story and universe. In that sense of the word, Tierkreis is not "canon", and Suikoden 1-5 are.

That's not to say that I spit on this new game or anything. Instead, I'm actually excited to see that the series is still being worked on in some form or another... just not the form that I'd wish it be worked on. But it is what it is. If it's better than Tierkreis and more related in feel to the main series, than I'm all for it. We'll have to wait and see.

[Piisuke]

What most people think about Tierkreis, is that it has no relation to Suikoden. It is missing the essentials what we have come to know in the numbered Suikoden games.

We know absolutely zilch about this game. It is just that some are interpretating the entire trailer is not canon, because the game doesn't outrightly state that this is Suikoden VI. "A tale in the million world universe" is automatically doomed as Tierkreis, despite Tierkreis not being mentioned in the trailer. Heck, thinking about it logically, Suikoden I to V are "tales in the million world universe" and this could very well be Suikoden's attempt at making Tierkreis part of the Suikoverse that was already established.

We know that Tierkreis wasn't meant as a Suikoden game, hence so many things felt out of place and missing. This game, on the other hand, has more of a Suikoden feel. Of course, as everybody else, I have only seen this the teaser, thus I cannot say what and how and where and why. However, I'm eagerly awaiting further information to see what the direction with this game is going to be.

We all like to see a Suikoden VI, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be getting other Suikoden games, which could be just as good. This Suikoden game tells us nothing, other than that it is a new game and some have already doomed this game, without actually even knowing anything. They say they do, but they have got no proof. They have got nothing. These websites they claim they read don't exist. It is speculation and they're angry. It is like seeing spoiled kids not getting the present they want, so therefore they refuse to like any other present they get.

[tiki]

Heck, thinking about it logically, Suikoden I to V are "tales in the million world universe" and this could very well be Suikoden's attempt at making Tierkreis part of the Suikoverse that was already established.

and that is why I strongly dislike the game based solely on the trailer alone

if they are trying to tie Tierkreis to Suikoden, that means the characters of Tierkreis saved our Suikoden's world and everything in it from a God

that's disgusting and it triviliazes the low-scale, semi-realistic struggles endured in the Suikoden story

Tierkreis can exist, it just can't infect the real Suikoden

at all

in any way shape or form

ever

[Piisuke]

And Star Ocean Till the End of Time made Star Ocean, Star Ocean The Second Story and Star Ocean The last Hope irrelevant. You know what I did? I enjoyed the games anyway and decided not to worry about that plottwist and instead enjoy those three games for what they were, great games. I haven't played Tierkreis, so you can say I am innocent in that department, but even if I did, I would not rant and rave and tell everybody they're not Suikoden fans and that they wrong and that Konami is wrong. Whatever your opinion is, it doesn't matter to Konami. They don't care about you. They will release a game where they think they can make the most profit. You might not like it, but others most likely will. Developers make games to make money. Not to cater to what you want. Konami really doesn't care about you thinking about things being canon, or not. It is their product, not yours, not Murayama's. Besides, you have no idea what Murayama would have done, had he still been with the company. Disregard all the game you want, you're fully entitled to your opinion, but Konami doesn't care and will do what they think will generate the most funds, whether you like it, or not. Deal with it.

[Rachael]

if they are trying to tie Tierkreis to Suikoden, that means the characters of Tierkreis saved our Suikoden's world and everything in it from a God

Not necessarily. The main character in Tierkreis hears Atrie's and Marica's voices from their respective worlds, and it turns out they're fighting the One King as well. He then says, "With all the worlds in the Infinity fighting together, there's no way we can lose!"

It's very possible that people in the world of the main series were fighting the One King. Or maybe the One King didn't even make it to their world. Somehow I doubt the One King had managed to connect every single world in the Infinity.

Anyway, you said in another thread that your definition of "God" includes omnipotence. The One King obviously isn't omnipotent; otherwise, he wouldn't have been defeated.

SPOILERS FOR TIERKREIS

Also, the game makes it clear that the One King is simply a Tenkai who used the "wrong" method--that of sacrificing the lives of the other "Starbearers"--to defeat...a previous One King, maybe? Or perhaps some other powerful evil?

Either way, the One King isn't really a god. He's a human who gained incredible power, but in doing so created a world without a future.

[tiki]

of course Konami will do whatever brings them the most profit and care nothing about me

and I will do whatever it takes to cost them the most profit in retaliation

if this game even vaguely begins to look as if it's trying to deface the main storyline or tie in Tierkreis I'll be happy to give it terrible ratings all across the internet, point out that it's basically Tierkreis 2.0 and cost them as many sales as I can any way I can, deal with it

I'll be glad to apologize and buy 5 copies if it has nothing to do with Tierkreis and instead takes place in the Suikoden world, though

It's very possible that people in the world of the main series were fighting the One King. Or maybe the One King didn't even make it to their world. Somehow I doubt the One King had managed to connect every single world in the Infinity.

this would also be a terrible option due to the fact that Suikoden is not about fighting an all powerful being / God, fighting the One King would triviliaze Barbossa, Luca Blight and all the other villains

Either way, the One King isn't really a god. He's a human who gained incredible power, but in doing so created a world without a future.

he isn't a God, he's just something that happens to have the power to unmake entire universes

alright then

[Piisuke]

You can do whatever you want, tiki. However, it won't help you. All you do is what you're doing right now, get people annoyed with you, because you're trying to enforce your opinion onto everybody else. Besides, give the game all the crappy ratings you want, Konami still won't care. They look at sales. Sales are generated by good reviews, merchandising, promotion, adverts and the like. Most people don't read personal reviews and go for magazines and websites. Boycott the game you want man, but stop antagonizing people here. People have decided to disagree with you and they are entitled to, just like you're entitled to dislike the game, regardless of how little you know about it.

[DoReMi_Vampire]

(There were two topics about canon so I'll put my comment here as well.)

And the great irony of this whole thing is, that the original Water Margin also has gone through this very same debate. Shi Nai'an is considered the original author but there's been reason to suspect that the ending of the story was made by a completely different person, Luo Guanzhong.

My personal feelings towards canon would be that if it tells the same storyline and adds on top of what's already been told then it's canon in my eyes. Of course I wouldn't disregard the tone of the story and the literary language as part of the canon, if the style of story-telling suddenly became totally inept I would argue that it's not canon since it breaks away from the way it's supposed to be told.

Also I personally don't see why fighting the One King would trivilialize anything in the main suikoverse. I mean who cares if he can devour whole worlds, that doesn't make the struggle of our favorite chracters and villains any less memorable.

[tiki]

because you're trying to enforce your opinion onto everybody else

but it's not an opinion

it's fact: Tierkreis has nothing to do with Suikoden

you can rationalize all you want to the contrary if you like, though.

[Piisuke]

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about the new game not being canon. A game we know nothing about.

[tiki]

the below conversation has happened about ten times by now

"A new Suikoden game is coming out."

"It doesn't look canon to me. It looks like Tierkreis 2.0.

"But you know nothing about it."

"But the trailer talks about a Million Worlds."

"So?"

"A Million Worlds is what Tierkreis had going on. Either it continues where Tierkreis left off in multiworld adventures, in which case it's not canon, or worse it's trying to tie Tierkreis into the main series officially. It is lose-lose either way."

"But you know nothing about it."

"It says Million Worlds!"

repeat ad nauseum