Do you use similar tactics?

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Wolkendrache
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Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Wolkendrache »

I’m talking about New Game + mainly, although you could apply some of the tactics to the first run as well.

- The key to success is to have as much control as possible. Whenever I lost a character it was 90% because the enemy evaded and 10% because I’m stupid. So I equipped every fighter with their respective command runes to have 100% hit chance. This way I got almost full control at the cost of critical hits, which is worth it to me. Since I like to distribute experience evenly, I don’t like criticals anyway (counter stuff neither). Don’t worry about running out of magic points, after 1-3 hits you’ll usually level up and everything’s restored. Unfortunately, Lalacle and Karl have to wait for lv. 3 spells, and Rita and Charlemagne don’t have command runes (so don’t equip them with berserk belts).
Pros: 100% hit chance, can use berserk belts without worrying to miss
Cons: no critical hits, loss of agility when using higher level spells
Mages are fine with their rune, attack spells also have 100% hit chance (but give Pablo a Fire Rune).

- Since most of the other runes suck, I attach a gale rune to all characters as soon as they get a second rune slot, because agility is king. This also compensates potential agility loss by using higher level spells. Maybe it’s just me, but fast and mobile characters are most effective. If I want to use slow characters, I arrange the whole group with slow ones, because if I mix fast and slow ones, the fast ones might lack support in the frontlines while the slow ones arrive when the battle is already over. A team of characters with similar speed makes the battle almost turn-based, which means more control.

- Speaking of speed and mobility, the skills I use are Battle Lust, Extra-Move, +1 Move, in that order of preference. And Jump mainly for mages. Actually that’s all I need. I don’t need that Critical Hit Skill in my strategy, nor do I want to rely on success in Block skill or other defensive stuff, but it’s ok if there are free skill slots available.

- Lastly, mobile equipment: I equip every fighter with a strength sash, magical cape and godspeed anklet; mages with a tome of the arts, any high defense cape, and a godspeed anklet. This is the fixed equipment, no need to change. Using S-Rank items, berserk belts and hands of god make a major difference. I call it mobile, cause I take it off after each battle and give it to the characters I use in the next, otherwise it’s a waste of quality.

I’m not suggesting that I use an innovative strategy, I’m just curious if you use similar strategies, or in case you use different ones, then which and why?
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Antimatzist »

1. No, everytime I lose or don't S Rank a battle, it's 100% stupidity and wrong moves. I rarely use command runes except for Falcon Rune and Kite Rune. Just make sure you're always on your terrain, always the one acting, not the one reacting and the game is easy.

2. I rarely use the second rune slot, the first rune slot always with the elemental sword. I never need anything else.

3. Battle Lust is a must + accuracy at low levels. I only use Exra Move for my archers and mages. I like the Parry ec skills - they are not part of my strategy, but if I mess up, the effectswill not be that drastic.

4. I only equip my major characters with really good equipment, the rest.. not so much.

really, this game can be extremely easy. The only strategy that you need is: USE HERO IV. Without him, I don't think I could S Rank anything in the Obel Ruins, his rune is just too overpowered.
Wolkendrache
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Wolkendrache »

1. That means you don't use berserk belts, else you'd miss alot, and that would be a double problem when going for S-Ranks. Also, being counter-KOed is not stupidity, it's bad luck.

2. I use elemental mirrors for the terrain. What else have these runes to offer to be effective (I never used them)? Instead of leaving a rune slot blank, you could as well attach gale runes to gain some speed, even if only for slower characters.

3. Interesting, cause in my strategy, melee fighters need Extra Move the most. They use the extra moves to step back on their terrain, or in narrow places to make space for the next attacker, or to form a line of characters to be attackable only from the front.

4. Maybe I'm too perfectionist, but I always try to keep all characters on the same level (except support characters). I like to use different character combinations, that's why I change a lot. Using the same characters all the time is a problem when going for S-Ranks, because they level too much. That's why I never use Kyril in the Obel Ruins because I believe the enemies are based on his level, although I don't if that's true. I never reckognized, because my characters always have nearly the same level.

Hero IV is the king when going for S-Rank items. As a matter of fact, he's a gamebreaker. In the first playthrough the Obel ruins were hard, but in NG+ I often S-Rank even with the crappiest characters.

Grüsse aus Mainz ;-)
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Antimatzist »

1. Actually, I S Rank every battle that I want to S Rank, even story battles with extensive treasure hunting.

2. The third spell of these rune is really good, because you always stay on your element, you automatically put the enemy on his wrong element etc. I rarely use slow characters like the Great Sword users, because their accuracy is really bad.

3. I never use a melee fighter on the wrong terrain! I can never make enough damage that way. But I use it for mages and archers for Hit and Run tactics, especially to break the concentration of enemy mages.

4. Yeah, I switch characters reglarly, but I don't use everyone in battle, often, the Level 10 characters stay in the back and use beads to get EXP. I also don't use Kyril, but the enemies in Obel are based on the average party level, but not using Kyril still helps in story battles.

A non-Hero IV walkthrough would be interesting, I guess I'd need to change my tactics a lot to S Rank stages. And I think S ranking Obel is actually pretty easy (e.g., if you beat the dragons without one of your characters dying, you will most likely get a S Rank), only the first level is painful :D

Haha, grüße ;) I wrote a walkthrough for the game (in German), based on MatildaWhiteKnightLeader's S Rank guide and personal experience. I need someone to playtest it or someone with different experiences, so if you want, you can write something in my board about it: http://suikoversum.de/suit,walkthrough.html
Wolkendrache
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Wolkendrache »

1. I think, after having obtained the S-Rank item, the game should have awarded you with a random item from a pool of diverse quality items for getting S-Rank again. Not too necessary, but more fun.

2. On a future playthrough I'll try these out, because I need some change for replay motivation.

3. Mine are almost always on their terrain, but not always. On the other hand, your characters do almost always hit the target, but not always.

4. I don't think the Obel enemies are based on the average of the whole group. It's either the actual party's level, or Kyril, or the character with the highest level.

This game is fun: we have totally different strategies but close to similar results :-)
I'll check your walkthrough when I play it again...
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Antimatzist »

4. Pretty sure about that. Actual party level is not possible, because the enemies are set up before you decide on your party. Also, my party level stayed more or less the same, only my lower level characters leveled up, and the enemy raised in level as well. I also did not use Kyril at all there.

Yeah, it's also great to see someone trying to get the most of this game. Most people try it and think it's too difficult, but when you get behind the game mechanics, it's pretty "easy". There is only one German Let's Play and that guy doesn't understand the game at all, it looks like "Twitch Plays Suikoden Tactics" because his moves are so random...
Wolkendrache
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Wolkendrache »

4. With actual party I indeed meant the party you last used, but I also doubt it. Imagine, you beat the Obel Ruins like 100 times with always the same 8 characters; if based on whole party average level, it means that these 8 characters then had much higher levels than the dragons. That sounds weird to me, because due to my even leveling I've never seen my party members being higher leveled than the enemies in the later chambers. That's why I always thought it's based on the highest level character (or Kyril, since he was always among the highest leveled). So are you absolutely sure or pretty sure?
(sorry about getting a little off-topic in my own thread)

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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Antimatzist »

I haven't calculated it yet, but I guess the enemies also get level boni, so the dragons might be average level + 10 or something like that.
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by KFCrispy »

if i have a lot of time in the future, i'll try recording battles where i S rank without Hero IV, and i'll try not to loot Obel too early since it provides a lot of advanced equipment and experience. i also want to confirm how to get certain items.....

i do like magic sword, when i am going to make a character a magic sword user, i will give him/her a Tome of Black Arts and even Wizard Rune for some for that slight MAG boost (MAG stat is applied as damage when you activate the lv 3).

i agree speed and Extra Move are really key to accomplishing everything with ease. my style is usually mages and long-range supporting a few super-powered short-range hitters like Nalleo.
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Antimatzist »

BUt are some battles possible to S rank without Hero IV? Especially later on. I feel like all mages are too slow, and by taht I mean their casting time. Only the Thunder Rune is ok, but every higher Fire Spell just takes too long. Mother Earth is useless as an offensive Rune and I don't like the Wind Rune.

RoP, on the other hand, has a super quick Level 2 spell which will kill anything. It has no element, so it will leave no elemental terrain which can be a plus in certain situations.

I can S rank every fight until I get Hero IV, but after that...
Wolkendrache
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Wolkendrache »

KFCrispy wrote:if i have a lot of time in the future, i'll try recording battles where i S rank without Hero IV, and i'll try not to loot Obel too early since it provides a lot of advanced equipment and experience.
Looting the Obel ruins early is not a bad idea as long as you don’t use the same characters with which you’re going for S-Ranks in the story battles (for exp reasons). I don’t get the point in avoiding advanced equipment early; it decreases the damage you receive, thus raising your chances for S-Rank. You’ll also gain skill points and money for the blacksmith. Moreover, since the enemies in the ruins are based on your levels, the ones which cast magic should be a lot easier, for example Flowing dragons that still can’t cast Silent Lake.
I agree on what Antimatzist said about high-level spells: hard to use, take too long to be effective. I’m using Lightning rune (not Thunder) on Lightn.-elem. mages, the rest gets a Fire Rune (not Rage). They only cast the 2.lv. spell (sometimes higher lv. with Lightning rune), so I use them as kind of long range attackers (instant hit, normal attack speed loss). With the correct skills (fire/lightn.), equipment (tome of the arts, magical hand), runes (wizard rune, if affordable), and on their terrain, they can 1-hit-kill many creatures. But I usually don’t use more than one per battle, because they are slow.
Question: I haven’t made calculations on this, but, is it possible to abuse (“special”) extra-move with mages? What is faster: walk and wait 2 turns; or walk, cast high-level spell, cancel it, extra move?
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by KFCrispy »

the magic stats affects spell chant time. If you boost their magic stat with Wizard Rune and equipment, you'll get better results and of course more damage at the same time. for mages, the Extra Move skill and MAG stat are everything. My Extra Move mages always move way ahead of anyone who is traveling on foot.
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Antimatzist »

Is chant time really affected by magic? I always thought that it only depends on your skill with the rune. Hero IV's 4th level spell still take a lot of time, even with those Tomes of Black (Magic??) and a Wizard Rune equipped.
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by KFCrispy »

i've had side-by-side comparisons where one mage's SPD was lower than others' but had the highest MAG stat out of anyone, everyone attempts to cast The Shredding using Cyclone Runes, and the high MAG despite going last would cast the spell first.
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Re: Do you use similar tactics?

Post by Wolkendrache »

And they had the same wind magic skill rank?
But still, most high level spells are hard to use: casting time (even when a little reduced), speed setback after casting, not party-friendly. Especially in NG+ fast fighters often destroy everything before the mage can launch a high level spell.
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