Can we draw any parallels between countries in both worlds?

Seth the Dark · Post by **Seth the Dark** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:24 pm

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts that maybe countries such as Kooluk or Harmonia had any real life predeccessors such as Great Britain or Japan.

Ranarldo · Post by **Ranarldo** » Wed May 24, 2006 10:39 am

throughout time, larger countries fell into smaller countries and vise versa. in the suikoden world it is not impossible to imagine there were at one time 2 super powers or what not. but throughout time, civil wars and other nations fighting have caused newer borders.

Ushiku · Post by **Ushiku** » Thu May 25, 2006 6:10 am

I wonder how large the Kingdom of Aronia was that Hikusaak overthrew and created Harmonia from. It isn't completely baseless to say that perhaps areas of land from Aronia broke away and were reconquered later e.g. Sanadia, Geddoe's village etc.

Also it is known that Toran and Higheast were former Harmonian territories, who knows if there are other possibly territories that were lost by Harmonia, with all their civil wars occuring it is very possible that on the Eastern borders of Harmonia they may have lost territory which isn't known about, because at the moment we have Northern borders in Toran, North Eastern borders in Dunan, Western borders in Grasslands and Zexen and Southern borders in Nameless Lands.

*Note* I'm talking about where the borders would be in the other countries, not where the borders are in Harmonia.

Alastor · Post by **Alastor** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:41 pm

Well, in every game something can look like something from real life. I dont know, Suikoden is so complex and big, and has so good made history (right now i fifnshed translating time-line on my language) that i was suprised by all plots and happening which are not directly mentioned by the name.

riou83 · Post by **riou83** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:29 pm

I doubt that is the case though it is not impossible to make distictions such as possibly Harmonia to Russia/ Soviet Union in that Harmonia was a super power during the games series, but from what it seems its slowly starting to lapse to a smaller role. There is also the fact that Highland, Grasslands and a few others have achieved freedom through rebellion such as the former soviet block of Russia with Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Yugoslavia, East Germany, ect. Though I doubt they intended for their world to be construed this way.

thecontrivance · Post by **thecontrivance** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:45 pm

Garan(in Toran)-Japan

Tinto-Portugul or Spain in the Triangular Trande/ Columbian Trade thing

Dragons Domain- Medievil castle of legendary warriors
Matilda Knights- Christian Crusaders

Harmonia-the Holy Roman Empire(Hikasuuk is the Pope)

Muse- Aincent China

Karaya lands- the Savanah

Chisa-Mongolia(you'd have to know history so dont ask if you saying "huh?")

Neclords castle- an ole Lords castle

Qlon- Buddist Temple in aincent China

Warriors Village- Medievil traditional village of warriors(how cliche' except for the sword naming...very original

)

the Great Forest-Segragation(you know this one......)

Vinay del Zekay- Renaissance Italy

Alma Kinan-Algonquin Indians

The Island Nations-The Carribean mon

Rokkaku- an old ninja village from feudal Japan

Razril-that old fort in Florida(uh whats its name?)

Guillame- R.Kelly

(just kidding....BUT SERIOUSLY!!!!)

Though I doubt they intended for their world to be construed this way.

Go to http://www.suikox.com/geo/index.php and read the commentary about the nations. There are deffinately real life parralels you just have to look a little closer to see them.....

Alastor · Post by **Alastor** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:04 am

Razril-that old fort in Florida(uh whats its name?)

Talking about Indian rebellion?
Well, you placed the story based on "out" similiarities, so if Matilda are Knights that doesnt mean they are crusaders, cause Crusaders were under jurdisticion of Pope, and Matilda is not under Harmonija control (because you say that Harmony is Holy Kingodm of Rome).
One of most important thing in Suikoden is that line between each country in it.
Frist we would havre to make clear which country ever had war with each other, and which didnt. That would make picture cleaner. Next step would to settle continent question.

Only possible is that Harmoniya realy is Russia, cause then the other part f continent, one qith Dunan and Toran could be the Europe, aso Torana nd Dunan which were in lot of wars could be Germany - French, Germany - Greatbritany and so on.

Other. Islnad nation could be USA, also created on uniting to defeat someone.
Remember that Dunan was once united? And than the 18. century came with all its revolution, specialy in France.

Too much talking....

thecontrivance · Post by **thecontrivance** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:45 pm

Well, you placed the story based on "out" similiarities, so if Matilda are Knights that doesnt mean they are crusaders, cause Crusaders were under jurdisticion of Pope, and Matilda is not under Harmonija control (because you say that Harmony is Holy Kingodm of Rome).

They were under Harmonian control for a while until they rebelled in the past and gained independence. They also wear their chivalry on a dyed cloth covering their armor(like the Crusaders did). They have those swords that resemble "the cross"(Like the Crusading knights did).

Only possible is that Harmoniya realy is Russia, cause then the other part f continent, one qith Dunan and Toran could be the Europe, aso Torana nd Dunan which were in lot of wars could be Germany - French, Germany - Greatbritany and so on.

Maybe for some of the little nations, but Dunan is like the middle east and Toran is definately aincent Japan, Holy Harmonia is Rome not Russia. I know this because of the large mass of land they owned in their prime. They have a theocracy(not a republic, democracy, or kingdom) and their religious system is OBVIOUSLY based on Roman Catholicism. Hikasuuk the High Preist is definately supposed to represent a Pope, and Circle Palace(or watever its called) is the Vatican.

You just cant look at where they are on the map and decide who they are because of their location(OH!! they are up in the north THEY MUST BE RUSSIA

), you have to look at their culture presicly and compare it to ours

Other. Islnad nation could be USA, also created on uniting to defeat someone. Remember that Dunan was once united? And than the 18. century came with all its revolution, specialy in France.

You got me there

... Maybe they are supposed to represent the US overall, but I know that geography is the Carribean/Hawaii(somewhere in the tropics).... Although all those little nations grouped together do remind me of Indonesia

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:23 pm

thecontrivance wrote:They were under Harmonian control for a while until they rebelled in the past and gained independence. They also wear their chivalry on a dyed cloth covering their armor(like the Crusaders did). They have those swords that resemble "the cross"(Like the Crusading knights did).

When was Matilda under Harmonian control? They were formed by Muse and then broke off after a time.

Only possible is that Harmoniya realy is Russia, cause then the other part f continent, one qith Dunan and Toran could be the Europe, aso Torana nd Dunan which were in lot of wars could be Germany - French, Germany - Greatbritany and so on.

It's been said that Harmonia is comparable to Russia by Murayama, but I'm not sure in what way.

thecontrivance · Post by **thecontrivance** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:07 pm

It's been said that Harmonia is comparable to Russia by Murayama, but I'm not sure in what way.

Yeah maybe geographically, but they most definately have Holy Roman culture. Rent a book from the library about the Holy Roman Empire, their culture, their clothing. You will find that they are most like Rome....

Alastor · Post by **Alastor** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:54 am

thecontrivance wrote:
Well, you placed the story based on "out" similiarities, so if Matilda are Knights that doesnt mean they are crusaders, cause Crusaders were under jurdisticion of Pope, and Matilda is not under Harmonija control (because you say that Harmony is Holy Kingodm of Rome).
They were under Harmonian control for a while until they rebelled in the past and gained independence. They also wear their chivalry on a dyed cloth covering their armor(like the Crusaders did). They have those swords that resemble "the cross"(Like the Crusading knights did).

No, no, no. Matilda was never under Harmonia jurdistiction.
Matilda was formed as Knights of Muse, preciselly - formed under Muse control to make balance for Highland which was gaining stronger at that time, but about 14 years later they chossed to crate their own Kingdom and so they did, without war or some rebbelion under State of Muse.

Night · Post by **Night** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:24 am

thecontrivance wrote:
It's been said that Harmonia is comparable to Russia by Murayama, but I'm not sure in what way.
Yeah maybe geographically, but they most definately have Holy Roman culture. Rent a book from the library about the Holy Roman Empire, their culture, their clothing. You will find that they are most like Rome....

When you say Holy Roman Empire, you seem quite confused as to what you actually mean. For example, you compare Hikusaak to the Pope, when in fact the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire was an Emperor, and despite being Catholic was often inclined to go against the wishes of the Pope.

You also talk about their culture and clothing, which is just crazy. The HRE was essentially a collection of different states in central Europe, and so there were many differences in their cultures. Similarly, the HRE lasted for almost a century, so exactly which period are you referring to? I can't see any that apply to Harmonia, as the HRE wasn't a theocracy (the priesthood weren't in control), it didn't differentiate between different classes of citizens (at numerous points throughout it's history other religions weren't prejudiced against, and protestantism was born in the HRE) and to be fair the Emperors were often quite weak and at the mercy of local nobles and barons.

In fact, the HRE was essentially a collection of equal nation-states, while Harmonia is one state dominating itself over all others within it's claimed territories. There is little common between them at all.

They were under Harmonian control for a while until they rebelled in the past and gained independence. They also wear their chivalry on a dyed cloth covering their armor(like the Crusaders did). They have those swords that resemble "the cross"(Like the Crusading knights did).

The Harmonian control issue has been dealt with. But once again, there is little in common between the Matilda Knights and the Crusaders. Matilda (to our knowledge) has never attacked another nation for religious reasons. Neither are they trying to establish a larger empire as the Crusaders did in the Holy Land. The only similarities are the ones you mentioned, and the corruption of their ideals by their leaders. These are similarities between almost any group of knights in history, however, and that's not even getting into the fact that it is impossible to talk about 'Crusader Knights' as an entity when there were so many diverse groups.

their religious system is OBVIOUSLY based on Roman Catholicism. Hikasuuk the High Preist is definately supposed to represent a Pope, and Circle Palace(or watever its called) is the Vatican.

To be honest, their religion is similar to many old religions we've seen in history. It's quite difficult to determine how similar Hikusaak is to the Pope, as we know so little about the Harmonian religion. What do they worship, for example? Hikusaak is High Priest, so they don't actually worship him as he is named a priest himself, but we don't know if he is actually seen as embodying a higher power, or just being a top example of a pious leader. We do know he wasn't elected as the Pope is, and that he is actually the leader of a large empire (which the Pope has never been). So I'd argue we don't actually know enough to compare the two. Similarly, we know next to nothing about the Harmonian religious system (although if I'm wrong please correct me) so saying that it is "obviously based on Roman Catholicism" is essentially a lie. Just because you have an opinion doesn't automatically make it fact without some proof to back it up. And once you've dealt with that, the Circle Palace could be any religious building.

You just cant look at where they are on the map and decide who they are because of their location(OH!! they are up in the north THEY MUST BE RUSSIA ), you have to look at their culture presicly and compare it to ours

That's funny, because no-one has 'just' looked at their geographical position and compared to Earth. Perhaps we've been reading different threads? The poster before you compared nations based on the history of wars between nations in Europe and went on from there and, if I may say so, offered considerably more proof than you did for their hypothesis.

You got me there ... Maybe they are supposed to represent the US overall, but I know that geography is the Carribean/Hawaii(somewhere in the tropics).... Although all those little nations grouped together do remind me of Indonesia

Hang on a sec. Didn't you just say that you can't just compare their positions on a map? And yet you see a small group of islands, and you compare to some that have no cultural or historical similarities besides the fact that they're all a bit sunny.

Anyway, apologies for the rant. But I'm quite interested in the crusading period, and a lot of your analogies are based on false premises that someone who didn't know about the period wouldn't realise.

thecontrivance · Post by **thecontrivance** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:09 pm

When you say Holy Roman Empire, you seem quite confused as to what you actually mean. For example, you compare Hikusaak to the Pope, when in fact the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire was an Emperor, and despite being Catholic was often inclined to go against the wishes of the Pope.

Do you know the difference between Aincent Rome and Holy Rome? You are talking about Aincent Rome! The one that was controlled by Governors and a Senate. I am talking about the HRE that WAS a theocracy and was the one that was in control during the Crusades. Aincent Rome never had a pope, but the HRE did!

To be honest, their religion is similar to many old religions we've seen in history. It's quite difficult to determine how similar Hikusaak is to the Pope, as we know so little about the Harmonian religion. What do they worship, for example?

We know enough.... Which suikodens have you played? Where have you been? Have you seen Circle Palace? Have you seen the way Sasarai and his lackeys dress formally?

Maybe you should see this http://www.suikosource.com/images/chars/s/sasarai01.gif

That's funny, because no-one has 'just' looked at their geographical position and compared to Earth. Perhaps we've been reading different threads? The poster before you compared nations based on the history of wars between nations in Europe and went on from there and, if I may say so, offered considerably more proof than you did for their hypothesis.

When did I compare fighting? I just listed who the other nationsresemble like the Warriors village being a cliche of Medievil Villages. the Karayan land representing the African Savanah

Hang on a sec. Didn't you just say that you can't just compare their positions on a map? And yet you see a small group of islands, and you compare to some that have no cultural or historical similarities besides the fact that they're all a bit sunny.

Never said anything about where they are located on the map. I just said their geography reminds me of the Tropics. Plus the little xylaphone music effect blends in with a Hawwian scenary. Look at the Fern leaves on Mordo! Look at the rock structures on Obel! Lime shelf Island? Hello!

Me and you were obviosly on two different time periods. I was talking about Holy Rome and you were talking about Aincent Rome. By the way, you say I used falsed analogies.... Thats wrong I watched them carfully I observed every aspect of the area's the music used, scenary, and and clothing, compared them to something in real life.

I noticed you used only half of wat i said when i said something or probably misunderstood what i was saying. Maybe next time when i write something you should read what i am saying more careful

O yeah! I been meaning to ask you.. do you hate Jesus or something cuz your Avatar is.......strait up? should I say?

Night · Post by **Night** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:16 am

Mods, if this edges too much into history as opposed to Suikoden then I apologise, and I'll stop. But I'll try and draw analogies to Suikoden as I go, to keep it relevant.

Do you know the difference between Aincent Rome and Holy Rome? You are talking about Aincent Rome! The one that was controlled by Governors and a Senate. I am talking about the HRE that WAS a theocracy and was the one that was in control during the Crusades. Aincent Rome never had a pope, but the HRE did!

It seems we have different ideas as to what a theocracy is. To me, as indeed it is to most dictionaries, it's a state or empire ruled by the priesthood, much as Iran now (for example), and indeed as Harmonia is. The HRE was not ruled by a priesthood. It was ruled by an Emperor (usually from the Germanic states) who was a Catholic. Often, however, the HRE Emperors would argue with the Pope and the Vatican. The Pope was not in control of the HRE, and neither was the priesthood. Thus, the HRE was not a theocracy like Harmonia.

We know enough.... Which suikodens have you played? Where have you been? Have you seen Circle Palace? Have you seen the way Sasarai and his lackeys dress formally?

Maybe you should see this http://www.suikosource.com/images/chars/s/sasarai01.gif

Unfortunately, the way someone dresses doesn't usually tell us much about their religion. We know how Eresh dresses, for example, and yet we know nothing about that religion. This may come as a surprise, but often a religion goes further than the robes of the priesthood. See, we don't actually know anything about the specifics of the Harmonian religion, as I said before. We don't know what they worship, or Hikusaak's role (God on Earth, or just very holy). We don't know what ceremonies they have, or what they expect from their followers.

Me and you were obviosly on two different time periods. I was talking about Holy Rome and you were talking about Aincent Rome. By the way, you say I used falsed analogies.... Thats wrong I watched them carfully I observed every aspect of the area's the music used, scenary, and and clothing, compared them to something in real life.

I noticed you used only half of wat i said when i said something or probably misunderstood what i was saying. Maybe next time when i write something you should read what i am saying more careful

Irony. Or were you being serious?

Anyway, hopefully I've cleared up that I wasn't talking about Ancient Rome, and that Harmonia has some major differences to the realities of the HRE. Perhaps, and I quote, you should "(r)ent a book from the library about the Holy Roman Empire, their culture, their clothing." I covered pretty much everything you've brought up to show that Harmonia isn't like the HRE, and as I said, the Empire spanned for such a time and over such a great area that there is no commonly held ideas of clothing, music etc for it. I can't remember how much we've seen of Harmonia, but it hasn't struck me as being too Central European so far in terms of landscape. As for clothing, the priests could really be any priesthood.

thecontrivance · Post by **thecontrivance** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:43 pm

We know how Eresh dresses,

He's the guy from Suikoden 5, that you get a choice to pick from.... Him or uh...who was it?.....Euram! Sorry havent gotten that far in five yet

I dont know what he looks like.

But about the clothing...... "it" can, but it dosent always have to.....

Most world religions have a distinct clothing pattern or style of dressing.
The way the person normally dresses dosen't always have to tell us what religion they are (as people can dress in their country's clothing styles), but most religions do have a clothing pattern