Sialeed's "Decision" *SPOILER*
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Lightfellow85493
yeah, sialeeds' betrayal was quite an odd twist to the game. I can understand how she felt about the corruption of the nobility and so on...but it would have been much easier for the Prince to rescue Lymsleia if sialeeds wouldnt have done what she did and intervened...but whats a good rpg without an interesting twist? lol.
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czartiffac
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:50 am
I think Sialeeds betrayal was made possible because of a few factors.
1) Her love for her family, no doubt.
She didn't want the Prince and Lym to be the one dirtying thier hand and becoming what they truly hate. That would ruin the image the new Royal family is pushing for. Not to mention it would continue the cycle of hate all over again.
2) The Civil war was was a 3 way.
Put the blame of the downfall of Barrows on the Godwins and you not only added an allie for the Prince but descriminated Godwin as well, destroying all noble connections they may have(Nobles don't kill Nobles because its scandalous). Then have the Prince wipe the evil Godwin out and you get a new nation willing to follow a benevolent ruler.
3) Her hate of Lucretia.
Sialeeds doesn't trust Lucretia and maybe in betraying, Sialeeds ensured that Lucretia wouldn't do to the Prince what she did to the Queen, in desperate circumstances.
Sialeeds betrayal did made a profound change in Lucretia's attitude as seen in the scene on Lucretia's room with Lelei after Sialeeds betrayal I believe.
4) Gizel's affection for her.
Dolph would not contact Sialeeds if Gizel didn't think he could sway her(of course I think he just needed Sialeeds for experimentation for the 2 True runes he has, since Lym is no use and Alena was a failure).
Sialeeds also found away to play the game, as they say.
5) The True runes.
Sialeeds has time and again express that she should have been the one to use the Sun rune. Did Sialeeds really think Gizel wouldn't ask her to be ginue pig for his experimentation, of course not. Everyone knew what Gizel tried to do to Lym. Sialeeds is not as dumb to think she won't get an oppurtunity to get her hand on one of the True Runes. It was part of her plan. I think the scene where she was suprise she'd be getting the Twilight rune was an act or suprise that she wasn't getting the Sun rune. I leave that to speculation.
In the end, should Sialeeds have betrayed? In its own way "Yes" because it potrayed the Royal family as the rightful and benevolent ruler in the eyes of thier supporters and critics and since no dirt was made in the name of the Royal family, theres is no reason to question thier authority.
Civil war politics is different from a world war. No one has a balance footing.
1) Her love for her family, no doubt.
She didn't want the Prince and Lym to be the one dirtying thier hand and becoming what they truly hate. That would ruin the image the new Royal family is pushing for. Not to mention it would continue the cycle of hate all over again.
2) The Civil war was was a 3 way.
Put the blame of the downfall of Barrows on the Godwins and you not only added an allie for the Prince but descriminated Godwin as well, destroying all noble connections they may have(Nobles don't kill Nobles because its scandalous). Then have the Prince wipe the evil Godwin out and you get a new nation willing to follow a benevolent ruler.
3) Her hate of Lucretia.
Sialeeds doesn't trust Lucretia and maybe in betraying, Sialeeds ensured that Lucretia wouldn't do to the Prince what she did to the Queen, in desperate circumstances.
Sialeeds betrayal did made a profound change in Lucretia's attitude as seen in the scene on Lucretia's room with Lelei after Sialeeds betrayal I believe.
4) Gizel's affection for her.
Dolph would not contact Sialeeds if Gizel didn't think he could sway her(of course I think he just needed Sialeeds for experimentation for the 2 True runes he has, since Lym is no use and Alena was a failure).
Sialeeds also found away to play the game, as they say.
5) The True runes.
Sialeeds has time and again express that she should have been the one to use the Sun rune. Did Sialeeds really think Gizel wouldn't ask her to be ginue pig for his experimentation, of course not. Everyone knew what Gizel tried to do to Lym. Sialeeds is not as dumb to think she won't get an oppurtunity to get her hand on one of the True Runes. It was part of her plan. I think the scene where she was suprise she'd be getting the Twilight rune was an act or suprise that she wasn't getting the Sun rune. I leave that to speculation.
In the end, should Sialeeds have betrayed? In its own way "Yes" because it potrayed the Royal family as the rightful and benevolent ruler in the eyes of thier supporters and critics and since no dirt was made in the name of the Royal family, theres is no reason to question thier authority.
Civil war politics is different from a world war. No one has a balance footing.
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Lucid
I believe she did it because as was said, she wanted to get rid of the 2 factions once and for all, and she didn't believe you were able to do it. She did say that she didn't believe you could when she was dying.
I think she made a grievious error ion not killing euram though. While he may seem weak and incompetent, watching the murder of his sire and sole means of nobility could push him or motivate him to an efficent revenge minded machine. He could become a greater threat later on.
I think she made a grievious error ion not killing euram though. While he may seem weak and incompetent, watching the murder of his sire and sole means of nobility could push him or motivate him to an efficent revenge minded machine. He could become a greater threat later on.
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Mystil
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:32 pm
I have to agree. I felt really bad for Euram. Though the Barows stole the Dawn Rune, they would have never gone to the length that Godwin did to take over Sol-Falena. Sialeeds did all of that out of anger and bitterness. She hated everybody. Hell she was WORSE than Sun Rune possessed-Arshtat. Hmm she's dead though, I don't see a need for him to get revenge.
Rune of Punishment.
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Kak
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:42 am
you have a point here, maybe she thought if the prince were to kill Barows, Lucretia would turn against him.czartiffac wrote: 3) Her hate of Lucretia.
Sialeeds doesn't trust Lucretia and maybe in betraying, Sialeeds ensured that Lucretia wouldn't do to the Prince what she did to the Queen, in desperate circumstances.
what I like least is that once Sialeeds goes to kill Salum, Dolph follows her in order to secure Salum's dead, in case she wasn't able to. It seems like THOSE FILTHY DEVIL GODWINS were planning killing Salum before Sialeeds would do it (it makes sense, if they win the war Barows would only mean problem, and if they lose Barows would be getting more importance in the senate, without Rovere and TFD GODWINS)
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Lucid
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Illecandra
Didn't Sialeeds mention 'a loose end' that she wanted to tie up, just after offering to go to Rainwall herself to withdraw the troops? Gizel would have easily guessed just what she was referring to, and inferred from it what her actions would be, including the possibility that she would finish the Barows family off by dirtying her own hands. It would have undoubtedly been beneficial to the Godwins. He could have simply ordered Dolph to help her out if she was unable to go through with it, or encountered difficulties. Gizel never actually interferred with anything Sialeeds was doing while she was on his side of the war; she had free reign of her own actions.Kak wrote:czartiffac wrote:
what I like least is that once Sialeeds goes to kill Salum, Dolph follows her in order to secure Salum's dead, in case she wasn't able to. It seems like THOSE FILTHY DEVIL GODWINS were planning killing Salum before Sialeeds would do it (it makes sense, if they win the war Barows would only mean problem, and if they lose Barows would be getting more importance in the senate, without Rovere and TFD GODWINS)
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Jowy Atreides
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Gizel's lack of trust culminates in Dolph's appearance at Rainwall.
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Illecandra
Of course he doesn't trust her, haha.. no one would have trusted her by then, she was so unpredictable. I meant, she was free to go about her business even under scrutiny from the rest of the Godwin faction. The idea of killing the Barows family may not have struck the Godwins right then, but since Sialeeds was heading off to do so, why not make sure it went well?
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czartiffac
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:50 am
I find the most intriguing part of Sialeeds betrayal was did Gizel actually played a hand in Sialeed's plans. I mean to say Gizel's affection to Sialeed's and vice versa the reason she was able to play two sides of the coin was a little bit irky, if you think about it.
There has to be some sort of common ground to why they hooked up together again. My theory about Gizel using Lym as a guinee pig to sway Sialeeds to change sides has been shaken now.
After I played Gizel's speech and last words before and after fighting the Prince, over and over in my head, I realize he knew they where losing and since he considered himself a patriot he wanted to make sure the winning side gets full and absolute victoty w/o strings attached.
Kinda like the German generals who tried to assassinate Hitler in WWII but this time Gizel didn't try to assassinate his father directly only his plans by using Sialeed's w/ the Twilight Rune.
The Stormfist event where Sialeed's save the Prince and the event that followed that where Gizel wasn't seemed to suprise or distress that they lost was a sign of cohesion from the two.
This is a theory and all but if this is the case then SV has more to it on the political standpoint, that any other Suikoden around. Which is cool in my opinion. lolz!
There has to be some sort of common ground to why they hooked up together again. My theory about Gizel using Lym as a guinee pig to sway Sialeeds to change sides has been shaken now.
After I played Gizel's speech and last words before and after fighting the Prince, over and over in my head, I realize he knew they where losing and since he considered himself a patriot he wanted to make sure the winning side gets full and absolute victoty w/o strings attached.
Kinda like the German generals who tried to assassinate Hitler in WWII but this time Gizel didn't try to assassinate his father directly only his plans by using Sialeed's w/ the Twilight Rune.
The Stormfist event where Sialeed's save the Prince and the event that followed that where Gizel wasn't seemed to suprise or distress that they lost was a sign of cohesion from the two.
This is a theory and all but if this is the case then SV has more to it on the political standpoint, that any other Suikoden around. Which is cool in my opinion. lolz!
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Suiko-Source
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:44 pm
I read this thread with great interest. That said, i would like to state my "two cents" as well:
Ultimately I do not believe Sialeed's betrayal was as it appeared.
Many things support this given the fact that her "tearful goodbye" was more about how worried she was about Lym and Hero V in regards to the Senate and not about being bitter in regards to losing her rune.
You'll also not find too many enemies/betrayers willing to save you from a pincer attack as was the case in the arena before the duel with Chil-der-dichk (my own personal name for him
).
Even her mannerisms when speaking to Hero V after the betrayal were more of the "big sister" style way of speaking. Its not really saying what she wants to say but its getting the point across. She is constantly telling them to "go back" or "quit while they're ahead".
Also you have to consider that given her own past history, she has been around long enough to know that the Senate is pretty powerful. She was there to witness her mother behead her own sister (her mother's sister), and to watch how "power" destroyed her own family.
I mean, she even gave up having her own family for the sake of family stability regarding Arshtat's. That kind of sacrifice doesn't come from a mere whim, that is true purpose.
I believe that she did not think that either Lym or Hero V could control the Senate, and thus she "appeared" to cross in order to gain a chance at assasinating both Godwin and Barows. Without either of them, the Senate would then be managable enough for someone to control. I'm not sure if she herself would have assumed control, but i'm certain that this was probably her ultimate goal.
However of course this is all mere speculation, but Lucretia's final words to Sialeeds were a bit of a confirmation: "... but your logic is no different than that of Godwins...".
Doesn't this sound like something Godwin would do?
Ultimately I do not believe Sialeed's betrayal was as it appeared.
Many things support this given the fact that her "tearful goodbye" was more about how worried she was about Lym and Hero V in regards to the Senate and not about being bitter in regards to losing her rune.
You'll also not find too many enemies/betrayers willing to save you from a pincer attack as was the case in the arena before the duel with Chil-der-dichk (my own personal name for him
).Even her mannerisms when speaking to Hero V after the betrayal were more of the "big sister" style way of speaking. Its not really saying what she wants to say but its getting the point across. She is constantly telling them to "go back" or "quit while they're ahead".
Also you have to consider that given her own past history, she has been around long enough to know that the Senate is pretty powerful. She was there to witness her mother behead her own sister (her mother's sister), and to watch how "power" destroyed her own family.
I mean, she even gave up having her own family for the sake of family stability regarding Arshtat's. That kind of sacrifice doesn't come from a mere whim, that is true purpose.
I believe that she did not think that either Lym or Hero V could control the Senate, and thus she "appeared" to cross in order to gain a chance at assasinating both Godwin and Barows. Without either of them, the Senate would then be managable enough for someone to control. I'm not sure if she herself would have assumed control, but i'm certain that this was probably her ultimate goal.
However of course this is all mere speculation, but Lucretia's final words to Sialeeds were a bit of a confirmation: "... but your logic is no different than that of Godwins...".
Doesn't this sound like something Godwin would do?
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Rezard
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm
Somebody made a comment about euram getting revenge on the royal family...
Is this possible? What´s his personal ending? (I got Eresh)
It would be fun to see Euram do a comeback, maybe he could create an organization that aims to return the power to the nobles of falena. Black Rose Society? I think his character has potencial.
Is this possible? What´s his personal ending? (I got Eresh)
It would be fun to see Euram do a comeback, maybe he could create an organization that aims to return the power to the nobles of falena. Black Rose Society? I think his character has potencial.
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Jowy Atreides
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Euram has pretty much secured himself as a "good guy."
Last edited by Jowy Atreides on Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Chrono2001
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Sialeeds did what she thought would be the best for her family and nation. She knew that if the war ended with getting Lym back, there could always be a chance for Godwin to rise back to power because people would always be loyal to him.
So she kept the war going were Godwins would completely wipe out. Same goes for the Barrows She knew that people would be loyal to them and for the nation to survive it could only have on power in charge that being the Royal Family
And she also knew that Lym and The Hero could not be trusted to git rid of the Barrows and Godwins after the war.
Call Sialeeds anything you want except a traitor because she was always loyal to her nation and Family.
So she kept the war going were Godwins would completely wipe out. Same goes for the Barrows She knew that people would be loyal to them and for the nation to survive it could only have on power in charge that being the Royal Family
And she also knew that Lym and The Hero could not be trusted to git rid of the Barrows and Godwins after the war.
Call Sialeeds anything you want except a traitor because she was always loyal to her nation and Family.
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Falenan_descent
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:43 pm
I believe Sialeeds knew the Prince had way too much compassion to do anything that she had done. He never would have killed Barows. So, she had to be the one to do it. But, I'm probobly one of the few to think she had a darker, hidden motive that she never got to play through.
My guess is that she was jealous of Arshtat reigning as Queen and being able to marry and have kids and that was something that Sialeeds really wanted. I mean, she IS overprotective of Prince and Lym. That's kind of proof that she thinks of them as her own children thus showing us that maybe she wanted children. And who wouldn't want the throne? Sialeeds is obsessed with glamour and flare. I'm sure she'd jump at the chance to be queen and have all the glory that comes with it.
Which makes me think that she killed Barows to make it easier for Gizel, not for the Prince. I mean, if she wanted to help the prince...she wouldn't have needed to change sides and prevent the Prince from getting Lym back. She really only made it harder for the Prince.
My guess is that she was jealous of Arshtat reigning as Queen and being able to marry and have kids and that was something that Sialeeds really wanted. I mean, she IS overprotective of Prince and Lym. That's kind of proof that she thinks of them as her own children thus showing us that maybe she wanted children. And who wouldn't want the throne? Sialeeds is obsessed with glamour and flare. I'm sure she'd jump at the chance to be queen and have all the glory that comes with it.
Which makes me think that she killed Barows to make it easier for Gizel, not for the Prince. I mean, if she wanted to help the prince...she wouldn't have needed to change sides and prevent the Prince from getting Lym back. She really only made it harder for the Prince.