thunder rune piece

[like2h]

On suikosource.com the description is "CriticalHit% up per piece" without giving an exact number. Is it deliberately vague because we don't know an exact number?

On suikoden.fandom.com it says "Enchant weapon: Lightning, Critical Hit Rate +5%". Is this information reliable?

I wanted to get your opinion on this: what is the exact effect of the thunder rune piece? The suikosource description does not provide specifics, while the fandom site gives a concrete "+5% Critical Hit Rate" increase. Do we have confirmation if that precise 5% boost number is accurate? Or is the effect still unknown and intentionally left unquantified on suikosource?

Any clarity you can provide is appreciated!

[Celes]

I even doubt that the Thunder Rune Pieces have any effect beyond changing the weapon's element. I never noticed a noticeable increase in crit hit rate. If this is true, it would also be a waste to forge more than 1 of the precious three pieces on a weapon.

Has anyone had other experiences?

[like2h]

Unless it can't stack, 5% x 3 = 15% seems too large to not notice the difference.

So I guess the 5% stuff may be incorrect.

However, if it is 1%, 3% seems too little to notice the difference.

Does nobody know of a way to hack the game files or modify the code to replicate the thunder rune piece?

[like2h]

By the way, do we have a formula for critical rate in s1, or does the s2 formula "Critical Hit %: (Tech + Luck/2) / 16" also apply in s1?

[Julian]

Crit formula in S1 is:

Crit Rate = (LUK + SKL)/8, lower cap of 3, upper cap of 25. Killer rune is a straight 2x after the cap is applied. So 25 would go to 50.

As for rune pieces, this is what I found looking through the code:

Wind: PDF+3 per piece, looks like it also givies DMG+5% per piece?
Earth: SKL+2 per piece
Water: +5 HP regen per piece
Fire: DMG+5% per piece

The only reference to the lightning piece I found in the code was the animation change for fire and lightning. Aside from the elemental damage (looks like +50% damage if enemy is weak to your element), it does nothing at all. Unless I missed something...

Edit: The whole "tablet displays correct rune piece" thing doesn't seem to hold up on the PSP version. Name is the same in both places. It's possible someone on the localization team noticed it and changed it on the stone tablet. Can anyone check the original PS1 JP..?

Quick double check on magic damage formula, it does look like they swapped earth and wind here last minute. Based on how these weaknesses, yeah, the wind rune piece is doing what is equivalent to earth magic damage, and the other way around.

[like2h]

I really appreciate those of you who can play around with codes and work out a formula.
Regarding the naming inconsistency between wind and earth rune pieces, it doesn't seem like a translation error but possibly an original issue from the Japanese PS version. Though I haven't played the Japanese version, I checked Japanese game guides, and where there is a wind rune piece, the term used is '風の紋章片,' which indeed translates to wind rune piece.

[Raww Le Klueze]

Edit: The whole "tablet displays correct rune piece" thing doesn't seem to hold up on the PSP version. Name is the same in both places. It's possible someone on the localization team noticed it and changed it on the stone tablet. Can anyone check the original PS1 JP..?

It's a localization thing only, the stone tablet on the J PS1 displays the same name as on the status screen. Earth for Earth.

[like2h]

Crit formula in S1 is:

Crit Rate = (LUK + SKL)/8, lower cap of 3, upper cap of 25. Killer rune is a straight 2x after the cap is applied. So 25 would go to 50.

By any chance, do you know any other formulas for S1, such as hit rate, counter-attack rate, and so on? I won't mention the formulas for the enemy side; I guess that is too complicated. Regarding hit rate, I assume it must have something to do with the enemy's skill.

[Julian]

Edit: The whole "tablet displays correct rune piece" thing doesn't seem to hold up on the PSP version. Name is the same in both places. It's possible someone on the localization team noticed it and changed it on the stone tablet. Can anyone check the original PS1 JP..?

It's a localization thing only, the stone tablet on the J PS1 displays the same name as on the status screen. Earth for Earth.

Thanks for the confirmation. So it looks like someone on the localization noticed it, but only changed it in one place... I think the misalignment on the element corresponding to rune elements is enough to confirm they're indeed backwards anyway.

Crit formula in S1 is:

Crit Rate = (LUK + SKL)/8, lower cap of 3, upper cap of 25. Killer rune is a straight 2x after the cap is applied. So 25 would go to 50.

By any chance, do you know any other formulas for S1, such as hit rate, counter-attack rate, and so on? I won't mention the formulas for the enemy side; I guess that is too complicated. Regarding hit rate, I assume it must have something to do with the enemy's skill.

Hit rate formula seems to be used by both party and enemies.

Base Hit Rate = 80 + Attacker SKL - Defender SKL, lower cap of 60, upper cap of 99
After applying the caps:
Player Haze Rune equipped: Divide Enemy Hit Rate by 2
Status 0x10, I assume Bucket? Divide Hit Rate by 2 (this check isn't differentiating player or enemy, but I don't think we have a way to apply bucket to an enemy?)

So haze rune = +50% evasion (lowers enemy hit rate by 50%) and bucket = -50% accuracy

Counter attack looks a bit weird. The check is done only if you dodged an attack.

It's checking various flags:

Enemies can't counter attack. Long range characters can't counter attack. (S/M can) Some sort of monster flag prevents counter attacks. These set the "can counter attack" check to 0.

Characters with the counter rune, and characters that used the defend command. Those set the counter check to 1.

Then if none of those are true, there's a rand(2) that gives a 50% chance to return 1 or 0.

I'm not seeing any further rand() checks, it looks like it's a straight up 50% counter rate if you dodge, and 100% if you have the counter rune or dodge. (Assuming enemy is counter-able, you're S or M, and the enemy isn't the first enemy in the formation.)

edit: It looks like the other check that makes countering 100% is defending. There also seems to be a bug in the "enemy can't counter" piece of code. The battle entity list is made up of a single list that contains your party, followed immediately by the enemy party. You have a "party size" variable so you can tell if the id is of an enemy or a party member. The check here reads: "If Attacker ID <= Party Size +1, return 0 (cause it's an enemy attacking a party member)". If your party size is 3, then your party has id's 1, 2, and 3. (Yes, they skip 0. Because. I don't know.) That means the first enemy in the formation has id 4. 4 <= 4, this is true, so it thinks the enemy is a party member, and thus they're attacking an enemy that can't counter, and it returns 0.

I assume whoever wrote this piece of code thought the party list index started at 0, and added the +1 to account for it. Or they were so used to doing that +1, because it's used in a lot of for loops that loop through enemies. for(int i = party_size + 1; i <= battle entity list size; i++), which correctly loops 4, 5, and 6, assuming a party size of 3 and enemy party size of 3.

Quick testing in game seems to back the above findings. It's still possible I may have misinterpreted some things.

[like2h]

Excellent work! If I understand correctly,

Assuming you can counter attack,

After dodge,

If you have the counter rune or having used defend command, counter rate is 100%, otherwise 50%.

Right?

[Julian]

If the enemy doesn't have the no-counter flag (quite a lot seem to have it), yes, that seems to be correct.

(And as long as the enemy isn't the first one in the encounter data, due to the bug described above.)

[like2h]

If the enemy doesn't have the no-counter flag (quite a lot seem to have it), yes, that seems to be correct.

(And as long as the enemy isn't the first one in the encounter data, due to the bug described above.)

Does "the first one in the encounter data" mean "the first one" in the right-screen list when I encounter them? What if I kill the first one, then the second one becomes the first one?

[like2h]

And also, the description for counter rune, which is "CounterAttack% x1.5", seems incorrect, which should be x2, if that is true.

[Julian]

Yes, that would be the first enemy in the enemy name list. And no, the second one moving up wont count. The name moves up on the list, but internally the data does not move.

[like2h]

Speaking of formulas, why not work out a physical damage formula for us? We already have a magical damage formula. I can do some basic work for you:

1. Normal physical attack damage:
- Damage1 = (attack - def) × (element resistance modifier) × (fire rune piece modifier) × ? (wind rune piece modifier)
- If critical, Damage = Damage1 × 3

2. Rune physical attack damage (e.g., colone, boar, etc.):
- Damage2 = Damage1 × (rune modifier)

3. Unite attack damage:
- Damage3 = (Damage1a + Damage1b + ...) × (unite modifier)

I have three concerns: the primary one relates to randomness—how and where does randomness work in the formula? Also, I assume there is no critical in 2 and 3, is that correct? Lastly, the issue of decimal rounding arises due to modifiers like ×1.05, ×1.5, ×2.5, etc. I understand that clarifying the entire process might be challenging, but any insights would be appreciated.