[Discussion] Member Recommended Parties with Reasoning

If you are stuck in the Dunan Unification Wars; or wish for more details on the gameplay systems, this is the place.
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Zotmaster
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Post by Zotmaster »

Red Killey wrote:If you compare them as magicians, then yes, Luc wins hands down. But if you're comparing between Rina (as a fighter) to Luc (as a magician), it's arguable that Rina could be more useful. With Kindness Rune trick, Double Beat and Strike Runes, and Kite Rune, Rina could deal around 1125s damage on every enemy every turn (if you're lucky to get her berserked with Battle Oath on first/second turn, she'd be dealing around 1700s to all enemies). That's more than what Luc could do with his magic. Also, that attack requires no MP at all, so you could use it freely without having to worry about running out of MP.
I hadn't thought of that. The possibilities involving that intrigue me, but without field testing - I don't have the time right now, I could probably try later - I would still have to go with my initial instinct - Luc - for these reasons:

One, Luc is faster. Much faster. Speed can be critical, in this case, in two aspects: Luc is more likely to get off the necessary attacking spell if an enemy needs to be finished now, or he's more likely to be able to heal everyone before your party dies. In either instance, while he may not do as much damage, he's more likely to deal important damage, or heal everyone before a big attack comes.

Two, magic is more versatile. I can protect people, heal people, damage everyone, or damage everyone and heal them at the same time. 160 MAG opens up a second level 4 spell, and Luc gets this fairly easily. This allows for the casting of Shining Wind, which out and out rocks, or Empty World, which can be incredibly powerful and is much more useful than it is in Suikoden 3. With 160 MAG, I can do it twice. At his peak, Luc can do it five times.

Three, extra physical damage from Rina is fairly redundant. The front three, combined with Riou and McDohl, are going to do more than enough damage if you equip them like I have. I would prefer magic support because it leads to more balance in the very unlikely event that something goes wrong.
People don't seem to use Gantetsu much despite being a very good character. Tsai and Tomo seem to be not so popular either. So any 2 of those 3 might be good for what you're looking for.
Gantetsu intrigued me at first, but his stats are fairly average all around. He tops out at about 180 in everything, which is thoroughly...lousy. Just in terms of stats, hell, I'd rather have Freed: at least his Luck can get over 200, even if he sucks in just about every possible aspect. Gantetsu's weapon also tops out at a measly 100. Based on all that, I'd say I'd rather have Chaco. He does have less HP than Gantetsu, but that's it. His weapon is better - although not great - but his Magic Defense is quite, quite good. Plus, he's medium-range, so you can hide him out in the back row if you really wanted to. Riou or Tir could handle front-row duties. In that regard, if you're not going all the way in leveling, he just might be better than Hai Yo. Intriguing.
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Post by Kuromimi »

Finding someone who can cast offensive magic, healing magic and supporting magic effectively isn't easy. I may just end up using Luc. The runes I would attach to him would be:

Mother Earth Rune for canopy defense, earthquake and possibly guardian earth.
Cyclone Rune for the shredding, healing wind and shining wind
Flowing Rune for kindness rain and mother ocean

He has an A Rank in all three of those runes; damage and healing increased by 40%. Once I've increased his magic to the highest possible value when he hits level 65, he'll have enough magic points to use Shining Wind four times. Equipment would have to be Wind Hat, Robe of Mist, Speed Ring and perhaps two Goldlets.
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Post by Asquian »

Zotmaster wrote:Ouch.

Even if your party was possible, though, Asquian, I do notice a couple of other problems.

You don't seem to have anything to do in the event a character drops in battle, not to mention you only have one healer. Sure, Riou is no slouch, but with enemies with multiple attacks, that one heal might not be good enough, especially if Riou's heal goes off before the enemy attacks do. And if someone falls?

Bob's Rune also costs you a turn as he transforms. Other than Bob, Bolgan and Sierra aren't exactly what you'd call heavy hitters. They fight better than empty slots, but still. And while 4x damage to one enemy is cool, that is, again, to ONE enemy. In a sense that's not too helpful. I do believe my party would net you more damage per turn even if your configuration was possible, due to the fact that Killey, Sheena, and Hai Yo can get a 250% or more buffer to their damage, individually, while still allowing themselves much greater odds to get another 2.5 times damage buffer with a critical. Thanks to Double-Beat, two criticals are possible, from each of them, per round. I could have opted for the Violence Runes instead, which would have made the damage disparity even greater, but I figure healing is better to make sure no one dies in combat, which is rather useful.

Looking back at my Rina vs Luc and allowing people to choose, in retrospect, I'd have to just go with Luc unilaterally. Luc's Magic and Speed stats can both get up to 255. He has higher max Magic and Speed stats than Rina (245, 186 respectively), or, ironically, "Master Mage" himself, Mazus (a nearly identical 246, 186). Also, while it's nice that Mazus has a Blue Gate and a Thunder Rune already on him, you can't take them off, which means he has a harder time being a good attacker and healer, with Flowing being about the only shot he has at being able to attack and heal (you could use Cyclone, but reviving would have to be left to someone else). Now that I think about it, why wouldn't you use Luc? Speed can be absolutely critical, but besides that, he's better at magic anyway.

If I made a mistake, someone correct me, but I think I've got about the best party Suikoden 2 has to offer.
it's nice to point out that you don't like my party as the absolute most efficient damaging party there could be. Since obviously the point of this thread was to come up with such.

I understood this thread to be what our parties consist of and why. I like to use different characters and use different combinations. the game could be beaten by literally almost any battle party with the right equipment/rune setup, so saying who's party is better is just a "pissing contest".

as to the 4x damage, once i've optimized attack power on bob and bolgan as much as i can, the damage they do is usually more than enough, combined with other's attacks, to take out 1 limb per round. As to if a character falls, that's the point of this diversified party. should one of the trio's characters fall, the other two are capable of carrying one with sound damage for the rest of the battle. It's not a perfect battle party, but it's fun, and as said my reasons are stated above.

Also i changed off the discrepancies on my runes, since my fuzzy memory failed me too often and i actually wnet back and checked my configuration.
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Post by Kuromimi »

Decided to make a change to Gengen's current setup. Since I've used him at every possible opportunity, I decided to see what kind of bonus he would get from the Kindness Rune. His overall attack went from 346 to 473. His damage increased significantly. Those critical attacks were almost dealing 2,000 damage; with berserk in effect of course. I think I'll pass up 15 extra defense and 5HP regeneration for this. ^^

What's nuts is that Gengen has died many, many times because of the stone trick. I may just remove him from the group when doing the trick so he doesn't lose any more attack. Can't wait to see what his performance is like when he hits level 99. O_O
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Post by Red Killey »

Zotmaster wrote:One, Luc is faster. Much faster.
This is a moot point considering that you could equip Rina with 3 Speed Rings if you want to. That'd give more than enough speed boost to allow her to be faster than most, if not all, enemies.
or he's more likely to be able to heal everyone before your party dies.
It's actually redundant to have both Riou and Luc as the healers because both of them roughly have similar speed. You only need one of the two to use healing spells. If you equip Flowing Rune to Riou like you said you did, we'd be looking at around 8 decent healing spells (5 Kindness Rain and 3 Battle Oath). That should definitely be more than enough.
In either instance, while he may not do as much damage, he's more likely to deal important damage,
But the thing is, Luc would depend on his MP which means that he'd practically be useless during the normal battles. Whereas Rina would be useful.
or heal everyone before a big attack comes.
As mentioned, Riou had the similar SPD stat. So if we've used him as the healer, no need to have 2 healers using 2 healing spells in the same turn.
This allows for the casting of Shining Wind, which out and out rocks,
I agree, but you'd be having limited use of the spell. And even so, it'd still be dealing roughly half of what Rina could do.
or Empty World, which can be incredibly powerful and is much more useful than it is in Suikoden 3.
Keep in mind that Rina could deal more damage than Empty World, without even damaging party members. So it's definitely hands down that Rina is better for this case.
With 160 MAG, I can do it twice. At his peak, Luc can do it five times.
I honestly doubt you would get Luc up to 5 level 4 MPs. It'd be depending on your luck because it'd mean that you'd have to get all the best level up stat boost with the exception of the 5 level. So speaking realistically, he might never be able to do that. Normally people would finish the game at around level low 63 or lower, that's roughly 36 level below 99, which means even with the best of luck, Luc would only get around 255-36 = 219 MAG. Not even enough to open up a 4th Level 4 MP. So realistically speaking, Luc would most likely only get 3 level 4 MP.
Three, extra physical damage from Rina is fairly redundant. The front three, combined with Riou and McDohl, are going to do more than enough damage if you equip them like I have. I would prefer magic support because it leads to more balance in the very unlikely event that something goes wrong.
But your setup gave Flowing Rune or Water Rune to Riou. Meaning that he'd be the healer. Also, the other party members (with whatever your setup is) are fighters, but they could only attack one enemy at a time (or twice if you put Double Beat). While Rina attacked all enemies. If you want to say that extra physical damage is fairly redundant, then you might want to take Hai Yo out instead of Rina because Rina is way ahead of him.

I'm not going to reply on your comment on Gantetsu because I was suggesting a decent character for Kuromimi to use. Obviously we know that he is not the best character to have, but Kuromimi wasn't looking for the best, he was looking for characters that people don't seem to use much. And people don't seem to use Gantetsu that much.
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Post by Zotmaster »

I am considering taking Hai Yo out. You mentioned Chaco and when I thought about it, the idea really interested me. I like him better than Gantetsu - I missed you saying that you were recommending him to Kuromimi, which is why I considered him - and he gets his rune slot at a reasonable level. The only reason I haven't already tested it is because I don't have a save file to allow me to, and right now, I'm not going to spend 20 hours to get to the point where I can test him out :P So I am merely trying to analyze it in my head.

As for the Flowing Rune on Riou and still wanting additional healing, I do that out of my experience as a veteran RPGer. Redundant healing is never a bad thing. One, if someone drops - like one of the people who can revive - you can pick them back up - although I don't think I recommended a Flowing Rune for Luc as well, it's certainly viable - and two, since the healing spells go off at different times, it can save you if enemies wedge an attack, or multiple attacks, after your heal. I was aiming for balance with a fairly negligible cost to damage (the damage you'll deal will still be mind-blowingly incredible).

I do like your Rina model, although I'd still have to go with Luc since I don't have a save file handy for a few reasons. The Kite Rune would be kind of dead weight if only a few enemies were around. True, Suikoden does have encounters with lots and lots of enemies, but an encounter with only a few (ie, one or two) would make the Kite Rune kind of a waste. Also, to bring her up to Luc speed (I like how that sounds), you have to chop a lot off her damage (with other modifiers, missing out on +60 STR is a lot). The other, larger, problem with this is that it puts a big burden on Riou to keep everybody alive. Great Blessing is a Level 1 spell, sure, but it really doesn't heal that much in terms of HP: at least not enough to guarantee survival. Riou might be a stat juggernaut, but not in terms of his Magic stat. This also limits the spells he can cast. Considering Battle Oath is a Level 3, while it's very nice, you're going to have to resign yourself to only ever being able to cast it 3 times (4 if you're insanely lucky). If you outfit him entirely in magic, this scheme becomes more viable because three Magic Rings can boost his spell allotment to something more reasonable, but then you lose his versatility as a hitter (I left his third slot open to whatever someone wanted, with some recommendations, but I usually gave him Double-Beat because his high speed and technique means he hits multiple enemies at once, more often than not, and the damage is worth it). Even so, though, it still leaves him as the only healer, and having to cast Mother Ocean costs you Forgiver Sign (I'd have to resign myself to only getting one of those: you aren't likely to get more than that). Plus, you could only ever do it once. It seems like the risk doesn't outweigh the benefit, unless a field test proves that Tir, Rina, Sheena, Killey, and Hai Yo/Chaco can kill everything before damage is sustained.

While Luc isn't likely to get five Level 4 spells, I would have to say 3 is a realistic number - especially if you use Magic Rings - and that would allow you to cast Shining Wind and still be able to revive someone if they die. That, I think, is striking a balance, unless the damage boost with Rina is so incredible as to be a "must have".

One more thing, which I just thought of. Again, sorry I don't have a save game handy to test this one, but what's the point of having a Double-Beat Rune on Rina if you're going to use Kite? Can't you only Kite once in the turn and then the Double-Beat is wasted?
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Post by Red Killey »

Zotmaster wrote:As for the Flowing Rune on Riou and still wanting additional healing, I do that out of my experience as a veteran RPGer. Redundant healing is never a bad thing. One, if someone drops - like one of the people who can revive - you can pick them back up - although I don't think I recommended a Flowing Rune for Luc as well, it's certainly viable - and two, since the healing spells go off at different times, it can save you if enemies wedge an attack, or multiple attacks, after your heal. I was aiming for balance with a fairly negligible cost to damage (the damage you'll deal will still be mind-blowingly incredible).
Well the idea of the best party is to be able to defeat the opponent ASAP by taking as few damage as possible. So if you managed to kill the opponent earlier, you'd eliminate the chance of getting hurt totally.

As for "if enemies wedge an attack, or multiple attacks, after your heal." situation, then it'd prove that your healer (let's assume Riou) is faster than the enemy. It wouldn't hurt at all to heal on the next turn instead because he'd go earlier than the enemies anyway. And how would Luc be able to help in that case considering that his speed is even quicker than Riou? He'd most definitely go even earlier than Riou and most likely you'd get two healing spells back to back instead, which means a total waste. Unless you have 1 quick healer and 1 slow healer (like Luc and Viki for example), that wouldn't help you at all.
I do like your Rina model, although I'd still have to go with Luc since I don't have a save file handy for a few reasons.
Just a small thing, but it wasn't my idea though. The setup was done by SARSadmin. I don't want to take credit of what's not mine.=)
The Kite Rune would be kind of dead weight if only a few enemies were around. True, Suikoden does have encounters with lots and lots of enemies, but an encounter with only a few (ie, one or two) would make the Kite Rune kind of a waste.
Not really true. If you encounter 1 enemy (let's assume a boss fight), just ignore the Kite Rune, and you'd deal 2250 damage (because you don't halve the damage for Kite Rune) to that enemy. 2250 is still more than of what Luc ever could do with any spell.
Also, to bring her up to Luc speed (I like how that sounds), you have to chop a lot off her damage (with other modifiers, missing out on +60 STR is a lot).
Not at all. The key is the Kindness Rune trick. With 999 ATK, you don't need (and you can't anyway) add any more ATK. So her 3 accessories could be used for anything that is not ATK related, such as 3 Speed Rings.
The other, larger, problem with this is that it puts a big burden on Riou to keep everybody alive.
Realistically speaking, we only need to stay alive whenever we face bosses. So basically it only happens during boss fights. How many turns roughly do we need to beat a boss? Honestly, with a party consisting the likes of Tir, Killey, Sheena, Riou, Rina, and Hai Yo, we'd be looking at 2000-3000 damage in total/turn. So we might only need anything between 2-6 turns at the most. With 3 Battle Oath spells and let's say 5 Kindness Rain spell (if you put Flowing), basically we got it all covered. And honestly, I doubt it that any of those characters would get KO'ed in 1 turn. They are too good to be KO'ed like that. If you managed to get any of them KO'ed in 1 turn, then obviously that's not the best party member to have.
Great Blessing is a Level 1 spell, sure, but it really doesn't heal that much in terms of HP: at least not enough to guarantee survival. Riou might be a stat juggernaut, but not in terms of his Magic stat. This also limits the spells he can cast.
Nah, no need to use Great Blessing at all. Unless you run out of level 2 or 3 spells that is.
Even so, though, it still leaves him as the only healer, and having to cast Mother Ocean costs you Forgiver Sign (I'd have to resign myself to only getting one of those: you aren't likely to get more than that). Plus, you could only ever do it once.

As mentioned earlier, with that kind of party, no one should ever get KO'ed. Honestly. There is definitely something wrong (or terribly unlucky) to get KO'ed in 1 turn.
It seems like the risk doesn't outweigh the benefit, unless a field test proves that Tir, Rina, Sheena, Killey, and Hai Yo/Chaco can kill everything before damage is sustained.
They definitely could kill everything in 1 turn assuming that we're talking about normal enemies. 1125s damage from Kite Rune would definitely kill 99% of normal enemies with the exception of Collosus and another monster that I forgot the name. But even so, that'd leave them with at the most around 500 HP which wouldn't be a problem for the other 4-5 characters to kill. So it's proven that they should be able to kill everything in 1 turn. Unless of course you're terribly unlucky and managed to miss all the attacks other than the Kite Rune.
While Luc isn't likely to get five Level 4 spells, I would have to say 3 is a realistic number - especially if you use Magic Rings - and that would allow you to cast Shining Wind and still be able to revive someone if they die. That, I think, is striking a balance, unless the damage boost with Rina is so incredible as to be a "must have".
Well it's not a "must have", but Luc as healer/reviver isn't a "must have" either. I guess it's down to own personal way of playing.
One more thing, which I just thought of. Again, sorry I don't have a save game handy to test this one, but what's the point of having a Double-Beat Rune on Rina if you're going to use Kite? Can't you only Kite once in the turn and then the Double-Beat is wasted?
Actually that's my mistake. I meant the setup was Double Strike, Fury and Kite Rune. Which means that you can't get her berserked by Battle Oath and never deal 1700 damage, but only 1125s damage all the time. Sorry about that, I missed that part.
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Post by Zotmaster »

Thanks for the info, Killey. I was under the impression there was a decent discrepency between Luc and Riou's speed, but I'm playing through again, slowly but surely, and I notice that while Luc is a tad faster than Riou, there really isn't that big a difference between the two. So that's my bad. It really wouldn't matter which one heals since either character's spell would go off at roughly the same time.

With that out of the way, I guess it would make good sense to use Rina instead of Luc. As long as you can keep HP high with Riou, you really shouldn't have a problem. I guess if I really needed the healing, I could maybe stick another Flowing Rune on Tir since I'm already going to have four characters delivering serious beatdown. Tir has three slots so I can still give him Double-Beat and Double-Strike/Fury and still do insane damage, only losing the chance of more crits with a Killer.

I don't like the Kindness Rune trick. It just doesn't seem right, but if you were really going for merciless slaughter, yeah, that's how you do it.

As for Rina's Rune configuration, why not make it Kite, Double-Strike, and Warrior? Sure, Rina and physical defense are not usually mentioned in the same breath, but if you stick her in the back row, she shouldn't really be physically attacked anyway. This would double her base Strength, which would more than make up for the +60 three Power Rings would offer. This would be better for boss fights since you could use Riou and hopefully berserk her, and you wouldn't be losing too much in a regular encounter since the doubled strength would still let her punch out enemies with ease, especially if you decide not to use Speed Rings.
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Post by Kuromimi »

"I don't like the Kindness Rune trick. It just doesn't seem right. . . . . ."

You could always use a character in battle for a very, very long time until the bonus takes their overall attack to 999. ^^

I think my next character is going to be Chaco. He is definitely not used by many people, but he has the potential to deal high damage.
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Post by Red Killey »

Zotmaster wrote:With that out of the way, I guess it would make good sense to use Rina instead of Luc.
Might still be better to use both Rina and Luc rather than getting rid either of the two though. But it's totally up to you.
I guess if I really needed the healing, I could maybe stick another Flowing Rune on Tir since I'm already going to have four characters delivering serious beatdown. Tir has three slots so I can still give him Double-Beat and Double-Strike/Fury and still do insane damage, only losing the chance of more crits with a Killer.
Just reminding that Tir had Souleater Rune locked in one of his rune slots. So you can only attach either Double Strike or Double Beat if you attach Flowing Rune on him.
I don't like the Kindness Rune trick. It just doesn't seem right, but if you were really going for merciless slaughter, yeah, that's how you do it.
Yeah, true. I don't really like that trick either. It's too troublesome if I have to KO the characters once every 30 minutes. But in theory, it works really really really well. It's just a matter of wether you are patient enough to do it or not. Personally, I don't. LoL.
As for Rina's Rune configuration, why not make it Kite, Double-Strike, and Warrior?
As mentioned earlier, with Kindness Rune Trick, your ATK is already 999. Doubling the STR wouldn't affect anything at all because ATK = STR + WPN. If ATK is already 999, no matter what STR you have, it'd still 999.
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Post by Zotmaster »

Red Killey wrote: As mentioned earlier, with Kindness Rune Trick, your ATK is already 999. Doubling the STR wouldn't affect anything at all because ATK = STR + WPN. If ATK is already 999, no matter what STR you have, it'd still 999.
-jabs Killey- Maybe I was going for NOT using the Kindness Rune :P

Ah yes, forgot about the wonderful Soul Eater. As for Rina and Luc, I think the "best" party only is big enough for one of them, and as far as damage goes, it's Rina.
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Post by Vextor »

Even then, Warrior would be a bad choice, especially when Rina's DEF is not too great. The warrior runes performance is quite dismal, as you only get a half your halved DEF added to your ATK, which means you only get 25%. Having a Fury rune or something that multiplies your damage instead of adds a small amount to your ATK would be better, given the possible cap on ATK.

Another choice would be an exertion rune on the weapon, which would take time but would at least give you a default bonus of x1.25.

Warrior runes are good when using Killey or Sheena, because they tend to end up with an expendable rune slot.
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Post by Red Killey »

Zotmaster wrote:-jabs Killey- Maybe I was going for NOT using the Kindness Rune :P
Nah, I don't think it'd be useful if you use Kite Rune setup without using Kindness Rune Trick.

So for example your D.Strike/Warrior/Kite minus Kindness Rune trick, I just tried it on my game with level 62 Rina, she'd be dealing 215s. If you replace Warrior with Fury (still without Kindness Rune trick), she'd be dealing 295s damage. To me, that's just too low to be useful. Compared to the 1125s damage (which would kill 99% of the normal enemies), the 215-295s damage is practically nothing and most definitely wouldn't kill all the later stages normal enemies.
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Post by KFCrispy »

replace Warrior and Fury and there will be a lot more damage dealt with the Kite Rune. also, for a weapon rune's attack bonus, you can only use Kindness or Exertion (or Solitude). the elements won't help.

my rune setup for Luc does not use his favorite Wind or Cyclone Runes whatsoever. maybe he should stick it on his rune. he has Alert, because being the fastest and strongest magician, he deserves it.. as well as Mother Earth and Flowing. nobody gets too many level 3 spells, but he pretty much has the most.. and they would be used for Earthquake in general, which, with his affinity, does 1200 to all ground-based enemies. one of his 2 or 3 level 4 spells should initiate Guardian Earth, and the rest would be used for the emergency Thor spell. someone else needs to provide the lightning (or wind) part, of course, and it's usually on Riou, Mazus, Flik, or others.
the fun part about this setup is that, even though enemies don't last long, you might get 1 or 2 chances to exploit the Alert status against the Beast Rune, and whip out a 3000 pt Thor that revives/heals your whole party, or several 1800-all Earthquakes.

McDohl is another candidate who i might give Alert to for a 2400 Judgement spell, but he's not as likely to get the chance to use it unless you're really trying to see it happen--he usually ends up with 2 lev 4's, and if you wait for the 4th turn to use them up, you wasted a lot of time -_- he has no offensive magic that is stronger than Judgement.
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Post by Avizoah »

Here's the party I will use. (I'm right at the end)

Riou
Georg
Viktor
Clive
Eilie
Luc

I don't think that'll help you too much, but There's some strong attack and some good magic in there. You need to have a balance I guess.

EDIT: please add more reasoning why these particular characters.
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