[Discussion] IczR1's Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

[IczR1]

How can the cook be better than Goerge prime? can anyone explain me that? i dont think no one goes into de the final battle with a cook fighting on it.....O_O

I'm not sure if it was intentional by the programmers to make Hai Yo THAT good ^^ he's even better than Sheena (yes, Sheena is NOT the second best character !), their stat growth is the same but Hai Yo has a stronger weapon (165 ATK at lvl.16, while the 1-handed sword of Sheena has 150 ATK), making him slightly better. In fact, the only thing that makes him inferior to Killey is the fact that he gets his 3rd rune slot pretty late at level 65 (Killey at 55).

About Georg: imo he's the best 1-slot character, a solid no-brainer to pick because he doesn't need much work to be good ^^

What makes him good his his VERY high S-rank base ATK value of ~371, plus he has A-rank stats for speed and tech, so he's able to score a good amount of critical and multiple hits. As a tank he's okay, his weakness is magic defense where he has very low stat growth (his high HP balances things out though).


@Stallion:

Valeria is awesome :] out of all the command rune characters she can make the best use of it. Since you want to know, here's how i like to set her up:

She's really strong with a base ATK value of ~346. Not only that, but she also has a high speed tech AND luck stat (they REALLY wanted to make her stats shine ^^), so she gets lots of multiple and critical hits, you can definitely consider NOT using her falcon rune at all (imo she can go both ways). Here's my math ...


[1] Fury + Falcon: 346 x2 = 692 x1.5 = 1038 (rare falcon rune critical hit: ~2595), constant damage

[2] Fury + Falcon + Frienship(W): 346 + 55 = 401 x2 = 802 x1.5 = 1203 (rare falcon rune critical hit: ~3008), constant damage

[3] Double-Beat + Thunder/Rage(W): 346 x2 = 692 x1-1.5 = 692-1038 damage, + a GOOD chance of scoring multiple/critical hits
--> calculated average damage: ~ 1560


And yeah, i've read your Valeria topic, pretty funny that you broke the damage limit ^^

A couple of queries on this... you state Exertion's bonuses as 1.0, 1.2, 1.4 in the first three rounds, however I'm pretty sure since its 5 rounds to 2.0 that the growth starts at 1.2 in the first round, not 1.0.

Hmm, since i wasn't sure myself when i wrote the whole thing, so i searched the forum back then, and Red Killey has written it twice that it's 1.0 in the first turn ...

"If you managed to deal let's say 300 damage in normal attack, then it would mean that your second turn would deal 360 damage (300x1.2), that's already +60 ATK and higher than what Friendship Rune could give. Not to mention that it would keep on increasing until the fifth turn."

"Exertion gradually multiplies your ATK from x1, x1.2, up to x2 and non elemental."

Can anybody test this ? If you are right, then that would make Hix a little bit better, not good, but still ... ^^

[highwind44029]

IIRC, Hai Yo has a lower STR growth than Sheena. Sheena ends up with around 165-175 STR at Level 99, while Hai Yo's is around 140-150, so that's about a 25-point descrepancy. Hai Yo has a 5-point edge weapon-wise, and he can equip an additional Power Ring (unlike Sheena with the permanent Star Earrings) giving him +20 STR, so it all evens out.

[IczR1]

IIRC, Hai Yo has a lower STR growth than Sheena. Sheena ends up with around 165-175 STR at Level 99, while Hai Yo's is around 140-150, so that's about a 25-point descrepancy.

Look HERE, they both have the same stat growth. If Sheena ends up with a higher strength value then you were lucky ^^ damn random level ups ...

[highwind44029]

I've checked that. I'm a obsessive freak regarding stat growths, and I've known better than just looking at the raw numbers. There are percentages involved in levelups too.

Suikoden III has almost the same stat growth configuration with a few changes, such as Level1-2 stat growth, and the starting point for weaker stat growths (Level 20 in Suikoden II, Level 22 in Suikoden III).

04 and 05 stat growths in Suikoden III both increase by 2-3/1-2, but the earlier's starting stat is 12, and increases by the higher amount only 75% of the time, and the latter's starting stat is 13, and increases by the higher amount at 90% of the time.

I'm pretty sure than Hai Yo's STR has an 04 stat growth, while Sheena's has 05.

They could end up with the same STR stat at Level 99, but you'd have to be pretty darn lucky if Hai Yo's STR ends up even just 10 points lower than Sheena's.

[IczR1]

I've checked that. I'm a obsessive freak regarding stat growths, and I've known better than just looking at the raw numbers. There are percentages involved in levelups too.

Suikoden III has almost the same stat growth configuration with a few changes, such as Level1-2 stat growth, and the starting point for weaker stat growths (Level 20 in Suikoden II, Level 22 in Suikoden III).

04 and 05 stat growths in Suikoden III both increase by 2-3/1-2, but the earlier's starting stat is 12, and increases by the higher amount only 75% of the time, and the latter's starting stat is 13, and increases by the higher amount at 90% of the time.

I'm pretty sure than Hai Yo's STR has an 04 stat growth, while Sheena's has 05.

They could end up with the same STR stat at Level 99, but you'd have to be pretty darn lucky if Hai Yo's STR ends up even just 10 points lower than Sheena's.

Wow that's very interesting

Are the increase-%-values confirmed for Suikoden 2 ? In that case i would work that into my statistics and see how it affects the ranking (shouldn't be too hard, i already noted the starting stats, i just need to fix 1 formula).

Thx for pointing that out

[highwind44029]

I'm pretty sure percentages apply, or at least the growth levels do. There are very noticeable differences at Level 99. Viktor and Bolgan's STR stats are quite different from the others' though.

[IczR1]

[HUGE UPDATE]

I took the stat growth rate into account, which changes the ranking significantly.


Here's the growth rate data i used ...

Growth Rate

00
Starting stat is 10
Level 01-19: 0-1 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 90%
Level 20-59: 0-1 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 60%
Level 60-99: 0-1

01
Starting stat is 11
Level 01-19: 1-2 Usually increases by the lower amount; approximately 75%
Level 20-59: 0-1 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 75%
Level 60-99: 0-1

02
Starting stat is 11
Level 01-19: 1-2 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 60%
Level 20-59: 1-2 Usually increases by the lower amount; approximately 90%
Level 60-99: 0-1

03
Starting stat is 12
Level 01-19: 2-3 Usually increases by the lower amount; approximately 90%
Level 20-59: 1-2 Usually increases by the lower amount; approximately 75%
Level 60-99: 0-1

04
Starting stat is 12
Level 01-19: 2-3 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 75%
Level 20-59: 1-2 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 75%
Level 60-99: 0-1

05
Starting stat is 13
Level 01-19: 2-3 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 90%
Level 20-59: 1-2 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 90%
Level 60-99: 0-1

06
Starting stat is 13
Level 01-19: 3-4 Usually increases by the lower amount; approximately 75%
Level 20-59: 2-3 Usually increases by the lower amount; approximately 75%
Level 60-99: 0-1

07
Starting stat is 14
Level 01-19: 3-4 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 60%
Level 20-59: 2-3 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 60%
Level 60-99: 0-1

08
Starting stat is 14
Level 01-19: 4-5 Usually increases by the lower amount; approximately 60%
Level 20-59: 2-3 Usually increases by the higher amount; approximately 90%
Level 60-99: 0-1


With this data it was possible to make a finer classification of the characters stats. There's just one thing that's still left open: growth rate 3 and 4 look identical on paper, the only way to see the difference is in-game, that needs to be taken care of in some cases ...


Thx again Highwind for pointing the growth rate thing out

[highwind44029]

Not a problem.

[IczR1]

[UPDATE ... again ^^]

I took a closer look at all characters with the focus on their magic abilities, and it turned out that i overlooked some strong points in some characters.


Here's an overview of characters with above-average magic abilities:


A+ rank mages:

- Jowy (+40% Darkness, +20% BlueGate/Fire/Lightning/Wind)
- Luc (+40% Darkness/Earth/Water/Wind, +20% the rest)
- Mazus (+40% Fire/Lightning/Holy, +20% Darkness/Earth/Water/Wind)

A rank mages:

- Flik (+20% Lightning, -20% Earth/Wind)
- Rina (+20% Water)
- Tengaar (+20% Earth/Fire/Holy/Wind)
- Viki (+20% all, but chance of backfire)

B+ rank mages:

- Kahn (+40% Holy)
- Nina (+40% Fire, +20% Earth/Holy)
- Riou (+20% Holy)
- Sierra (+40% Darkness/Lightning, +20% Wind)
- Siegfried (+20% BlueGate/Fire/Lightning/Holy)
- Zamza (+40% Fire, -20% Water/Wind)

other characters with good affinities:

- Gantetsu (B rank, +40% Holy, +20% Water)
- Killey (B rank, +40% Darkness/Fire/Lightning, +20% Earth/Holy/Wind, -20% Blue Gate)
- Meg (B rank, +40% Lightning/Wind, +20% Earth/Fire/Holy but may backfire)
- Millie (B rank, +40% BlueGate/Fire/Lightning, +20% Darkness/Earth/Wind, +20% Water but may backfire, -20% Holy)
- Stallion (B rank, +40% Wind, +20% Lightning, -20% Water)
- Tomo (B rank, +40% Earth, +20% Fire/Holy/Wind)
- Yoshino (B rank, +40% Water, +20% the rest)
- Lorelei (B rank, +20% Earth/Fire/Lightning, -20% BlueGate/Water)
- Freed (B rank, +20% Earth/Fire/Wind)



When comparing their magic abilities (versatility, damage output) with their other (physical) stats, here'S what i came up with ...



Should DEFINITELY be used as a mage:

- Mazus (+1010)
- Meg (+500)
- Luc (+130)


STRONG with magic, but CAN be used as fighters also:

- Millie (+400)
- Zamza (+380)
- Stallion (+250)
- Sierra (+240)


REALLY GOOD with magic, but their strength lies elsewhere:

- Yoshino (-40)
- Nina (-300)
- Tomo (-520)
- Jowy (-560)
- Killey (-870)


SOLID with magic, but it's not necessary:

- Freed (-180)
- Tengaar (-310)
- Lorelei (-430)
- Kahn (-600)
- Gantetsu (-700)


DON'T use them as a mage:

- Flik (-270)
- Rina (-1050)
- Riou (-1210)


I have NO F'N IDEA:

- Viki ^^



[CHANGES]


- Mazus: 4.9 -> 5.2
- Meg: 4.8 -> 5.6
- Luc: 5.5 -> 5.7

- Millie: 5.3 -> 6.0
- Zamza: 4.1 -> 4.8
- Stallion: 5.0 -> 5.4
- Sierra: 5.8 -> 6.2


Oh, and:

- Karen: 4.8 -> 5.0 (just fixed something)

[Stallion]

I was going to mention Karen - apparently she has one of the highest Earth affinities... and from memory she had 2 top level spells by lvl 99.

I don't know I used her mainly for her style - I loved how she threw her dress off at the start of battle, even trying to get a waking rune on her so she would stay in the dress ( didn't work btw ).

I normally have Karen with Flowing - Twin Ring - Mother Earth, there are times when I need Riou to be attacking and Karen can heal... her magic is pretty weak granted, except Earthquake which I think she got about 950 damage to all in the last dungeon.

Anyhoo - nice list and thx for the responses on Valeria ^_^

I'll try to remember to test the Exertion = 1.2 first round thing tonight.

[highwind44029]

Karen has great physical fighting capabilities. Give her *Double-strike and *Fury, then have her use *Twin Ring every round. She'll deal major damage. If you don't like the "may ruin balance" property of her rune, just replace *Fury with *Balance, and just use Battle Oath or Anchovy Pizza whenever you want her berserked.

[IczR1]

Karen has great physical fighting capabilities. Give her *Double-strike and *Fury, then have her use *Twin Ring every round. She'll deal major damage. If you don't like the "may ruin balance" property of her rune, just replace *Fury with *Balance, and just use Battle Oath or Anchovy Pizza whenever you want her berserked.

That's EXACTLY what i took into consideration when updating her score ^^
Karen is the only character (beside Millie) that has 2 open rune slots AND a command rune, and because she can't equip a weapon rune the setup Fury + Double Strike + Command Rune works best for her in terms of damage. The weakened defense isn't that bad since her defensive stats are solid enough. And imo the unbalance thing isn't that harsh either, in random battles it's not an issue at all.

I was going to mention Karen - apparently she has one of the highest Earth affinities... and from memory she had 2 top level spells by lvl 99.

I don't know I used her mainly for her style - I loved how she threw her dress off at the start of battle, even trying to get a waking rune on her so she would stay in the dress ( didn't work btw ).

I normally have Karen with Flowing - Twin Ring - Mother Earth, there are times when I need Riou to be attacking and Karen can heal... her magic is pretty weak granted, except Earthquake which I think she got about 950 damage to all in the last dungeon.

Yeah Karen CAN work as a mage too, she's a B rank magic user and has +20% affinities with BlueGate/Earth/Holy, but -20% with Water. That's why equipping Flowing Rune on her isn't the best idea ^^

I'll try to remember to test the Exertion = 1.2 first round thing tonight.

That would be nice, thx

[highwind44029]

I'm pretty sure you can replace the *Sleep in her weapon... I should try doing the Kindness Trick on her.

[aydas_arrow]

Milie actually should propbobly be higher ranked as a mage, she has a huge affinity to the blue gate rune and deals a hell of alot of damage with the final spell

[Red Killey]

Milie actually should propbobly be higher ranked as a mage, she has a huge affinity to the blue gate rune and deals a hell of alot of damage with the final spell

Unfortunately, Blue Gate Rune is not all that great. Dealing a hell of a lot of damage with the final spell would also mean dealing a hell of a lot of damage to the allies, making the spell not so useful because it could easily cause more harm than good.

Plus, Rage Rune is better than Blue Gate Rune in all possible ways (bar the fact that Blue Gate is non-elemental while Fire is elemental). So I wouldn't consider Millie to be all that great because of her Blue Gate Rune affinity.