Maximum damage (single attack) part II!

If you are stuck in the Dunan Unification Wars; or wish for more details on the gameplay systems, this is the place.
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Stallion
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Maximum damage (single attack) part II!

Postby Stallion » Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:31 pm

Okay I've been arguing this point for some time, now lets back it up with facts.

After using the kindness rune trick to max PATK to 999, Killey's setup was as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------

KILLEY SETUP

Double-Strike
Violence

W - kindness

Assuming 1000 patk for ease of calculation, here's the low down.

1000 x 3 = 3000 ( critical hit )
3000 x 2 = 6000 ( enemy sleep )
6000 x 1.5 = 9000 ( double strike )
9000 x 5 = 45000 ( violence )

Since Killey does 2 hits, he does a couple of hits of 22500 ( assuming no defense on opponent ).

--------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------

VALERIA SETUP

Falcon
Violence

W - kindness

Same deal applies to damage, assuming 1000 base

1000 x 2 = 2000 ( sleep )
2000 x 5 = 10000 ( violence )
10000 x 5 = 50000 ( falcon rune critical hit )

That's as far as the argument has gone before, and people disbelieve my claims saying the falcon rune's critical attack is only 3x damage. So I ran some tests.

----------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------

edit by KFCrispy: changed the topic title cuz thread is developing...
Last edited by Stallion on Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Stallion » Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:31 pm

KFCrispy wrote:ummmm i believe Valeria's Critical Falcon is 3x, not 5x. but i've only seen it once and that was after learning it was possible. i've put down 3x on the website runes guide as well, so there must have been a reason. can anyone confirm?


Okay I've tested this:

Valeria lvl 92 ( PATK 351, Fury )

Normal hit - 618
Falcon rune - 1204
Falcon Critical - 3060

3060 / 5 = 620, thus proving Valeria's case and that Killey is knocked off his perch of being the biggest hitter of all the characters.


KFCrispy wrote:oh lookie here, i found the gamesave. his atk is 558 after max ATK and DEF (in combination with Warrior Rune), 3x Power Ring and Master Garb. so Exertion max raises it to 1116, violence to 5580, critical to 16740, dbl-strike to 25,000. add the sleep penalty and it's 50,000.


It seems I'm going to have to test Valeria with the kindness rune trick - unless we can somehow get her 351 patk over 500 without using any runeslots. (sigh)

How do you suggest I get a picture of her damage? Did you use an emulator or take a photo of the damage on your TV? o_O

------ edit ------

I was discussing this on SuikoX as well, and SARS comments made me wonder something.

If the Kindness rune is actually able to ADD 999 patk to the bearer, Valeria could potentially have ~1350 patk and Killey possibly ~1550.

The only thing I can do is try this I guess. I'll test taking a photo of my tv screen tonight and failing that look for an emulator to see if I can prove Valeria to be truly the master of damage.

Does the kindness glitch ADD 999 patk to the user or simply increase the patk TO 999. With only 3 digits to represent patk it is possibly impossible to tell.

( FORGIVE THE DOUBLE POST - IT WAS FOR EASE OF READING >_< )

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Postby Stallion » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:52 am

I have come across something truly bizarre. I BROKE THE DAMAGE LIMIT. I had to do it twice to truly believe myself but it does now seem i've proved it possible.

First off I set Valeria up for max damage like above.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/ ... ure016.jpg


I got violence to activate and got a falcon rune standard 2x damage... 17836 damage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/ ... e00041.jpg

Now considering the critical is 5x damage, we can calculate the hypothetical damage. 17836 ( i'll call it 18000 for ease of calculation ) halved is 9000. 9000 x 5 = 45000.

I was determined to see this massive number appear before me, however I came across a slight flaw in my plan. I got the perfect conditions and ... see below:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/ ... ure017.jpg

It's hard to tell, but its actually HEALING for 11000 damage. I can back this up by reminding you if that was a killing blow ( and no birds have that much HP ) the bird would be fading out in death animation.

So what happened...

The way I figure, I broke the damage limit. Like the kindness rune trick that gives 999 patk, having surpassed the array size for damage, I have broken into the array for healing.


So how big is this array?

Factoring in my above calculations and knowing an array size has to be on the bit size chart ( 1,2,4,8,16,32,64... ) I would have to hypothesize that the array can handle 32768 damage. This would mean the actual damage done by Valeria is 32768 + 11802 = 44570.

So can we call this conclusive evidence that Valeria is the queen of damage? If you don't believe I broke the damage limit, try it yourself.

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Postby Wraith » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:25 am

I love you....

I'm gonna try that in my next playthorugh!

Try it with soem other characters!

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Postby son_michael » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:20 am

Amazing!

well done stallion you make us all proud to know you


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Postby Destiny's Warrior » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:35 pm

Whats the Kindness rune trick
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Postby Jowy Atreides » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:41 pm

From http://www.suikosource.com/games/gs2/guides/runes.php

"Kindness Rune trick: KOing a character with 0 Kindness Factor value will cause ATK to become 999 when the Kindness Rune is in effect. Unfortunately, the next time-checkpoint will increase the Factor back to 0."

Here's a thread to talk about it: http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=573

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Postby Stallion » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:41 pm

The other thing I discovered is that this damage is possible from the second you get Violence and Kindness runes. Someone will have to remind me when that is but here's my proof.

All these are normal hits on kookaburra mobs around greenhill.

Tengaar ( lvl 27, weapon atk 43 )

Kindness rune trick = patk 999 = 961 damage
Tengaar died again = patk 999 ( still ... )
Sharpened weapon = patk 999 ( + weapon atk 108 ) = 958 damage
Level up to 42 = patk 999 = 964 damage

So it seems all external +atk modifiers are cancelled out and patk is calculated ALWAYS as 999 flat.

Add Fury rune = patk 999 = 1461 damage

I then put the kindness trick on Valeria ( lvl 92 ) and again got 960 damage. This means, as soon as you can get the kindness and violence runes, Valeria's maximum damage is possible.

So the question is this - how to exploit it? Do you get violence and kindness BEFORE Luca Blight? Sure you can't put him to sleep but that's good because we don't want to go healing him.

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hmm

Postby dr-mladjo » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:22 am

.
So the question is this - how to exploit it? Do you get violence and kindness BEFORE Luca Blight? Sure you can't put him to sleep but that's good because we don't want to go healing him.

yes.use mathilda door trick and you will have violence after few hours(i usuali take it after white deer in quest).kindness rune you find basket in lakewest after you recive your castle.you can make max damage after just few hours...but with other players
b42 b13 b82 b84 b6 b7

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Postby Red Killey » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:53 am

Stallion wrote:This would mean the actual damage done by Valeria is 32768 + 11802 = 44570.

So can we call this conclusive evidence that Valeria is the queen of damage? If you don't believe I broke the damage limit, try it yourself.

What do you mean with "Queen of damage"? Damage in 1 hit only? Female damage dealer? or simply maximum damage? If the latest, then wouldn't KFCrispy's Killey could hit 50k while your Valeria only did 45k? Which means that Killey can still deal more damage than Valeria.
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Postby KFCrispy » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:14 pm

heh well Killey isn't gonna take the role of Queen, is he...
display-wise Killey's attack is split into 2 separate numbers and these two numbers don't overflow.. BUT the damage is totaled when actually applied to the enemy, so it will overflow.

it's certainly hard to "exploit" considering the complex situation required by the Violence Rune AND a Critical Falcon. i mean, what is the chance of a Critical Falcon... i have seen it once or twice in all of my playthroughs. the Violence status can be activated with another character using Sylph (or just losing a lot of life) then Banshee on Valeria.. but depending on a critical falcon? i would say go with the unite with Anita! but whatever..... in general, everyone can benefit greatly from the Kindness Rune trick and Violence, but they are both rather tedious to maintain.. things like Double Beat and Fury are much better to work with for normal playing!

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Postby Stallion » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:34 pm

Red Killey wrote:What do you mean with "Queen of damage"? Damage in 1 hit only? Female damage dealer? or simply maximum damage? If the latest, then wouldn't KFCrispy's Killey could hit 50k while your Valeria only did 45k? Which means that Killey can still deal more damage than Valeria.


You're saying Killey actually hit for more than 45K? From memory wasnt the sreenshot of him doing two hits of 20K or 22K?

Anyway, I agree this perfect condition is tricky to get to work, I got it twice in an hour. As far as round the world normal play goes, buth Killey and Valeria can take out most any enemy in one hit, and both are useful in boss battles also.

I'm saying she's the queen of one hit damage, until such time as someone takes Sheena and proves he can do more.


--- edit ---

Perhaps disproving myself, here's another go:

THEORY

Bob's rabid fang is an awesome weapon, it gives patk x2 and he can still critical from that form for an extra x3. This equates to Valeria's x5 rune damage and therefore Bob should be also capable of this damage.

1000 x 2 = 2000 ( werewolf )
2000 x 2 = 4000 ( sleep )
4000 x 5 = 20000 ( violence )
20000 x 3 = 60000 ( critical )

however... violence rune requires you make the attack in the next round from when you went berserk. with Bob, to get enough damage to use violence he needs to be in human form, and to transform takes an entire turn with no attack, hence rendering it impossible to perform this hit with Bob unless you can get him to take enough damage IN werewolf form. Since his def is also x2 and he heals 50 hp/round in this form it seems impossible.

Thanks to wataru14 at suikox forums for this insight - It was brought to my attention that the Servant attack may trigger the Violence rune ... *IF* Bob can partake in this attack while werewolfed.

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Postby Red Killey » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:39 pm

Stallion wrote:You're saying Killey actually hit for more than 45K? From memory wasnt the sreenshot of him doing two hits of 20K or 22K?

The screenshot wasn't the maximum damage of Killey at all. As KFCrispy mentioned in the other thread, the damage on the screenshot (22,581 damage total) was done to a non-sleeping monster. So technically speaking, sleep would double the damage which means 45k+ which is slightly more than Valeria's 44k.

And that screenshot wasn't at the maximum setup either. As KFCrispy mentioned, Killey could break 1000 ATK by using Exertion (that could lead to him dealing hypothetical damage of 50k) while your Valeria setup is sort of stuck at 999 ATK with Kindness Rune trick.

I'm saying she's the queen of one hit damage, until such time as someone takes Sheena and proves he can do more.

Well Sheena technically is supposed to be able to deal very similar amount of damage that Killey could, but that Star Earring might be a bit of a problem.

Bob can actually do all that. Just no one tried it yet. You should probably test it out too, Stallion =)
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Postby KFCrispy » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:46 pm

didn't Blue Moon once perform a huge attack with Servant Attack? it didn't reach the max damage cap? but i guess he didn't have any cheat devices to boost everyone to 255 stats... oh yeah, and he didn't hit a sleeper

i have a screen cap of killey hitting a sleeping super low level enemy, it totaled 45,171. but i was saying the calculated damage dealt before enemy reduction is over 50K.

i'm also thinking it's possible that enemies may get to apply defense twice on a double-hit? but probably not.

ok i was trying a few things and ended up getting a weird result..... when Bob transformed both before and after getting Violenced, he kept his Violence status. however, he was only doing 17958 on a critical (kindness trick, violence, rabid fang active, critical, enemy sleeping). his regular attacks were doing a third of it so it's no number bug. i think the Violence status gets kicked out or reducd somewhere.. but he kept the status all the way until the turn after he transformed back into human! as human, his critical was 13,000ish.. didn't record it. so i maybe the rabid fang is not doing 2x? --> OKAY, violence status on bob seems to be adding 40-50% dmg instead of multiplying things by 5??? seems to be acting like a regular Fury Rune? he was doing about 1400-1500 on a regular hit in "violence" mode as human, w/kindness trick giving him 999.

i used still had killey again and went for a critical. it worked but then, the super weak Bon Bon DID NOT DIE. instead, it probably gained a ton of life cuz i whacked it with some powerful attacks for the next couple rounds before it died! i've loaded my original save state where i had screencapped the critical and i get the same result--the enemy seems to gain life, even though the numbers are colored white meaning damage.

edit: i tested Bob w/out Violence Rune to see if he naturally goes berserk when he loses more than half his life, but he did not... so Violence Rune on Bob was definitely causing the 1.5x dmg.....

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Postby Stallion » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:13 pm

The issue here is that the violence rune's massive attack only works for the one round after his status goes berserk. If that next round was used to transform to werewolf the violence 5x is lost and it just has a lingering berserk status.

Have you ever noticed different characters hold berserk for different lengths? Sierra/Karen can't hold it for more than 1-2 rounds but Bob/Viktor hold it for ages.

The issue is getting Bob to take sufficient damage IN werewolf form. With your sylph trick I think you could do it. 17k sounds about right for just berserk status under the given conditions ( roughly equal to Valeria's 2x not 5x falcon use ).

Now this was posted on SuikoX and is perhaps suggesting Valeria's damage was more than I thought:

Pyriel ( from SuikoX.com ) wrote:Eh...It's unlikely that total damage is formulated using an array. The most likely explanation is that it's a signed 16-bit integer. Other games I've played with represent damage as positive numbers and recovery as negative numbers. Both are applied by the same routine, so a healing item in essence does negative damage. Konami probably didn't anticipate damages this high, so they didn't bounds check their damage formula. The result is an overflow error, with the damage becoming a negative value. When passed to the hp modification routine, a negative number is subtracted from the current hit point value, thus your enemy was healed 11, 802 hit points.

If it can be assumed that the overflow behaved in a predictable manner, then the actual damage total from the calculation would be 0xD1E4 (-11, 802). That would equate to a positive integer of 53,732.

The only way to absolutely confirm this would be to hack around with the game's code a bit. Konami has a penchant for doing things in odd ways, so it's possible there's some other factor at work here.


So what do you think? I'm pretty sure his calculations are flawed lol.


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