Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

If you are stuck in the Dunan Unification Wars; or wish for more details on the gameplay systems, this is the place.
Omnigamer
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by Omnigamer »

Seya's run has good luck pretty much all the way through with only a few significant instances of poor luck. The run I posted is a mixed bag, with some good luck and some bad luck. The overall route is basically the same one I came up with for this category, with the only differences being some menu differences based on personal taste. Note that I also have a 5:56:xx run, but it isn't uploaded at the moment. Either way, the 5:57 video shows the current steps taken at most points.

The OoB sounds interesting, but I have my doubts it would lead to anything significant. Still, if you can remember the steps to trigger it, we can play with it further from there.
srd_27
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by srd_27 »

Omnigamer wrote:For example, a number of minor cutscene skips are known for various points, but skipping them prevents you from advancing in the given area or dungeon.
What kinds of cutscene skips are there?

I know of the Tinto zombie skip (which is already used in the speedrun) and the Amada early recruit trick which will result in softlock (as mentioned by BadPotato). Any more of these?
Omnigamer
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by Omnigamer »

You can skip the brief cutscene on your return trip to North Window after getting Star Dragon Sword by just walking around the area where the scene occurs. Doing so leaves up a barrier on the actual entrance though, so you have to see it to progress. Similar things happen in Muse, where you can skip brief opening dialog, but it doesn't allow progression if you do it.

I've tried a few other things just to explore possibilities, but the game isn't set up well for that. For example, you could skip all of Pest Rat if you could find a way to get through his loading zone, and still advance story after that. The addresses relating to your position seem to change by area though, so it's a tedious process to individually test different loading zones that way. And even so, that knowledge is useless unless there is some way to actually achieve the skip.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by ninjaluc79 »

My problems do not necessarily involve speed-running, but rather the 108 SoDs + Clive's Quest Normal Run. I have done this before, but I could no longer pull it off since. I tend to forget things, my recruitment routes are often sub-optimal (I had to constantly go back and forth through towns because of my terrible memory with the game's plot), and war battles dread me so much even if they are scripted, because the SoDs can die if the war units are not optimized enough, which will count against the 108 SoDs run. In my last playthrough, terrible memory, trying to beat Luca Blight with only Riou's party, and war battles took the bulk of

I have the following questions:

1. How many recruits does Castle Level 3 actually need?
2. Which plot windows allow recruitment and do not allow recruitment? I am wary of recruiting people during plot missions because I simply do not know a which exact points in the game allow me to recruit SoDs and which ones do not. As a result, I failed to recruit Lebrante in my last playthrough before access to Radat was blocked before the Luca Blight battle, so I was not able to recruit Bob before the Luca Blight battle like I usually do when I am not trying to complete Clive's Quest.
3. What should I do with Clive's Quest after Radat? Should I go to Sajah right away or should I go somewhere. I have completed Clive's Quest so long ago I could no longer remember how I did it.
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Omnigamer
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by Omnigamer »

CL3 is 63 recruits, I believe.

For the most part, you are not "locked out" from recruiting characters just from embarking on a story mission, with the exception of Greenhill. If you're asking about when characters first become available to recruit, the SoD list for Sui2 on Suikosource is a good resource. There are a few errors, but overall it's mostly accurate.

There aren't any storyline cutoffs for Clive's Quest scenes, only the timer. In fact, when I offered Clive's Quest as a bonus incentive for RPGLB, I tested it by doing it all at once at the end of the game, starting from that second scene in Lakewest.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by ninjaluc79 »

More questions:

1. How about war units? Arranging war units eats up a lot of time but I do not want anyone to die in wars either.

2. Do you recommend beating Luca Blight with only Riou's party or is it just better to try getting a 1 turn KO from each of the three parties?
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Omnigamer
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by Omnigamer »

The only point of any danger with War Battles are against Kiba, Luca, and in Rockaxe. For all of the other war battles, you can effectively run away to time out the battle, or use a cavalry unit with Chaco + Templton to just end battles early. I get that you're scared of losing somebody, but overall the chances are really low. If you do get a death, just reload a save from before the battle; no reason you need to do it all in one shot.

I think you're worrying too much about the time investment in fighting Luca. Fight him however you think you can win. Even with a lot of time spent in setup and otherwise, you should still be able to take him out with only 20 minutes work or so. You can also just use the back-row Riou bug, if you're worried too much about getting a safe setup.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by ninjaluc79 »

I am not really worried about getting a safe setup, and I don't intend to use the back-row Riou bug unless I am using three parties as opposed to only one. I am currently analyzing the Luca Blight battle to see what kind of party setup is optimal for normal play, not necessarily a speed run. In the end, though, people just pick whoever they like, but I would like to give people some useful information about the Luca Blight battle that people can use depending on their playing styles (offense-oriented or balanced offense-defense; physical-heavy, magic-heavy, or balanced parties).

I am thinking of creating a topic about the Luca Blight battle, so we can talk about optimal methods of beating him using as many party configurations as possible.
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st_rf
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by st_rf »

Does anyone know if this list of issues in the run still current?

I've just become interested in the route for Suikoden II but am having issues finding any documentation of the route past 2016. Is that just where it dropped off or has there been progress made since? Speedrun.com seems to only have runs from 2016 and any% documentation from 2015, while I'm convinced there's got to be more ways to optimize.
Omnigamer
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by Omnigamer »

All of the listed items are still relevant. You might be able to add one or two more, but for the most part those are the biggest places to find minor optimizations. I say minor because for minute+ savings, you will really need to find something brand new and completely re-route large swaths of the game. If you have ideas for further optimizations, I'd definitely like to hear them.

Documentation from 2016 is, for most purposes, still accurate. That's where routing dropped off because I got busy with other projects, and the other players weren't as interested in finding/testing new things. The current route for any% probably maxes out around 5:50, with 5:52 being a reasonable goal. The True Ending route can be improved a lot - I started making the route, but never got to finalize/test it. I don't have an estimate of final time for that, but I expect 10 minutes or more can come off from it.
st_rf
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by st_rf »

Got it. Thanks!

Re: Level routing: I've found a bunch of resources on how to calculate battle experience for enemies of higher levels but none for enemies of lower levels. Do you happen to know these numbers or where I can find them? Or will I just have to mine in-game for that info?

EDIT: I've figured this above question out to enough of the degree I needed through playtesting.

However I do have an additional, yet unrelated question on the run: Why Eilie for the SDS/Abomination portion? The issue seems to be that without leveling, she lacks consistency in having a 3rd slot spell. I'm making the assumption that the following options are not viable, but would like to confirm that they're out of the question before testing:
-Rina, since her MP is needed for Two River
-Zamza (to be placed in party in place of Gengen during Highland mission, allowing exp growth to lvl 24), since the time lost getting him wouldn't compensate for time saved
Omnigamer
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by Omnigamer »

You're referring to the experience scaling. All of that information is available in the (slightly hidden) bestiary legend.

For Eilie, the answer is simply that you have no choice. It's a fixed party for that leg of the story, so no opportunities to get creative.
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Pyriel
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Re: Open Problems in Suikoden II Speedrunning

Post by Pyriel »

Regarding chinchirorin, I decided to look into it over the last couple of evenings. I'm not entirely certain, but it appears to be a rather more complete simulation than I usually see in older games. The standard in this era would have been to generate the result of a roll ahead of time, and then just randomly animate something that drives toward that result, or to use some other trick to keep things simple. With this, it appears that they generate random starting values for how each cube will rotate, and then they actually simulate dice to some extent. The result is slowly built as each die settles.

It's likely not exploitable moment by moment. I can get different results by delaying a throw, even with the same starting state. Although, Tai Ho tends to get the same results when a snapshot is used; likely this is because a somewhat predictable mechanism determines when he throws. It's not impossible that using a tool assist, you could find a recognizable moment that will lead to favorable results. Unfortunately, I think the random salting at the start will make that difficult to carry over to an unassisted run. Worse, there's no controlling Tai Ho, as far as I'm aware, and he can always storm before you even get a turn.
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