[Guide]Level 80 Magician Tiers

[ninjaluc79]

Here it is, as promised, the Level 80 Magician Tiers for Suikoden 2.

I chose level 80 as the base level for this list to take into account characters who receive their head rune slots late: Hai Yo (65), Sigfried (70), and Hoi (80). All three can use the Blue Gate Rune, so they are supposed to have a Summon affinity by Level 80.

This time, I used multiple criteria values, one set for each element. However, I used the higher-level runes (Rage for Fire, Thunder for Lightning, etc.) to determine the elemental magic tiers. The Blue Gate Rune tiers is listed in the Magic Tiers as the "Summon" element.

The actual magic tiers list are placed in the Magic Tiers tab.

Support and full-heal spells are not counted in the calculations, only direct offensive and healing magic with base values. So Earthquake and Kindness Rain count, but Clay Guardian and Kindness Drops do not.

Storm Warning (Lv4 Wind, Lv3 Cyclone, reflects magic damage from user) calculation formula = 300 - MDEF. The 300 value is based on a 255 MAG character with 3 Magic Rings treated as an enemy unit.

E-rank affinity to Water is counted as a B-rank affinity since Water has no direct offensive spells that can backfire (Silent Lake has yet to be tested, but if it is found that Silent Lake can backfire, i.e., fail to disable magic casting for enemies unless they cannot be silenced, Water mages will be penalized).

Legend by color:
Gold - the heroes Riou and Jowy
Yellow - Rank A to S Magicians, excluding Jowy (Luc, Mazus, McDohl, Rina, and Tengaar)
Blue - Rank B+ Magicians, excluding Riou (Nina, Flik, Kahn, and Siegfried)
Green - Rank B Magicians (Millie, Viki, Zamza, and Yoshino)
Orange / Beige - Rank C+ Magicians
Purple - Rank C Magicians
White / No Color - Rank D to F Magicians

Rank Legend:
S - The best mage in the game.
A to A+ - The next best mages in the game, gifted with high MAG stats and good magic affinities to all elements.
B to B+ - These characters are considered very good mages with above-average MAG stats and good magic affinities to most elements.
C to C+ - These characters either have low MAG stats but good affinity to certain elements or have high MAG stats but bad affinities to many elements. Thus, they can fulfill the mage role better if they specialize in elements they have strong affinities for. For example, Meg can only reach around 115 MAG (8/4/2/1 MP) at level 80, but she can be built into a decent Lightning (A) or Wind (A) Mage.
D - These characters have low MAG and average affinities to most elements.
E - These characters have too low MAG and bad affinities to be effectively used as mages, except if they excel in a certain element.
F - These characters cannot use any magic runes at all.

Special cases:
- Viki has an E affinity (+20% damage, chance to backfire) to all elements despite having an above-average MAG stat. She could have been an A-Rank Magician if all her affinities were set to B (+20% damage, no backfire).
- Sierra is considered at least a B-rank magician, but is penalized by not being able to use Resurrection (Holy) and Water runes while lesser-rated mages can use either or both. Since the final 2 spells of the Blue Gate Rune uses the caster's Water affinity and Sierra has no Water affinity (base spell power = 0), her Summon affinity suffers greatly.
- Some low-ranked magicians can have low MAG and bad affinities to most elements but still excel in a specific element. Such examples include Valeria (B in Fire), Bob, Pesmerga (both B in Dark), and Makumaku (can only use the Water element, and has an E affinity to it).

Update (1/23/15)
- My previous magic damage formula had an error, so I updated the tier list to take the correct magic damage formula into account. This caused slight changes in the rankings, most notably Viki (E affinity to everything), bumping up to Rank B+.

Suikoden 2 Mage Tiers.xlsx

Enjoy!~

[ninjaluc79]

Update (1/23/15)

- Magic Damage Formula corrected.

Enjoy!~

[KFCrispy]

hmmm i recall the magic damage formula only applied the MAG stat as flat damage--- isn't it that the affinity only affects the spell's base damage and then add MAG?

the formula you use is (base of spell + MAG) * affinity

http://suikosource.com/games/gs2/indepth/damage.php

[ninjaluc79]

the formula you use is (base of spell + MAG) * affinity

That's right. I thought it's that way, until I found out I was wrong, so I accordingly updated the tier list to its current version.

[KFCrispy]

ok cool. i was confused by another thing on your spreadsheet but i get it now... you multiple how many uses a character has for each spell and then add all the damage from MP * spells for "total damage", which is why Luc always ends up in 1st place.

i don't know if i necessarily agree with this ranking system, since it's based on total damage a character can deal over several turns.... because level 4 spells have such a high base damage, your system is heavily skewed towards those who have the most MP. I wouldn't say Luc is a better Fire mage than Mazus... Luc can have C-affinity for every element but your method will generally give Luc the advantage because he has 4 level 4s (which do the most damage for the traditional offensive runes) while Mazus only has 3.

[ninjaluc79]

ok cool. i was confused by another thing on your spreadsheet but i get it now... you multiple how many uses a character has for each spell and then add all the damage from MP * spells for "total damage", which is why Luc always ends up in 1st place.

i don't know if i necessarily agree with this ranking system, since it's based on total damage a character can deal over several turns.... because level 4 spells have such a high base damage, your system is heavily skewed towards those who have the most MP. I wouldn't say Luc is a better Fire mage than Mazus... Luc can have C-affinity for every element but your method will generally give Luc the advantage because he has 4 level 4s (which do the most damage for the traditional offensive runes) while Mazus only has 3.

I got that formula from the Suikoden I Mage Tiers made by a forum user some years ago. I guess the rationale of that formula is that when choosing a Mage (offensive or supportive), go for one that has as many MP as possible so you can dish out magic damage or heal allies as many times as possible. An additional one is that when choosing between Mages with the same MP growth, choose
one with the highest affinities for the desired element as possible.

I found that if Luc has low affinities to everything, he still leads everyone because he has more MP than anyone else, but the margin was much less than if he had his usual affinities.

In reality, however, at least in Suikoden 2, odds are people who know that physicals always trump magic in Suikoden would stack their party with as many physical DDs as possible plus maybe one healer other than Riou so that they won't use ANY mages, offensive OR supportive, if at all.

On the other hand, odds are people who don't would just choose whomever they want and go with it. But when they do that however, they find that other characters can do the assigned roles (i.e. Mage) better than who they have originally picked. Most of the time, they will find another character with higher MP in this case, with or without regard to affinities.

I think to balance things out, maybe you will only need just enough MP for the mage to be effective while the physical DDs do the dirty work, at least in the end-game. So actually, you really don't need to bring a Mage with a lot of MP if your DDs can finish the job before the mage runs out of MP.

Of course, early-game, things are easier. Would you bring someone with high affinities but only 6/3/1 MP or someone with low affinities but 7/4/2/1 MP in fighting the Sewer Rat in Two River?

That is why one must not rely on tier lists all the time. Players should just pick whomever they want and go with that.

If you can recommend a better method of ranking Magicians based on their effectiveness in each element, please do, as I'm planning to make a Level 99 Mage Tier List once I smooth everything out.

Thanks for that insight.

[KFCrispy]

i think most people will save level 3 and 4 spells for bosses and use minimal level 1 and 2 spells for random battles.

i personally focus on total damage per turn or total damage within a limited number of turns, since boss battles will rarely last 10+ turns.

[ninjaluc79]

Then maybe I'll just use the strongest spell for each element? After all, most mages will save the higher level MP for the boss fights, anyway.

[KFCrispy]

i think people can change the sorting on your spreadsheet to figure things out, so it's already helpful. maybe just a table for expected damage for each spell would be useful (instead of damage per spell times MP)

[ninjaluc79]

i think people can change the sorting on your spreadsheet to figure things out, so it's already helpful. maybe just a table for expected damage for each spell would be useful (instead of damage per spell times MP)

Will take this into account in creating the Lv99 Magic Tiers. Thanks.