Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

If you are stuck in the Dunan Unification Wars; or wish for more details on the gameplay systems, this is the place.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by ninjaluc79 »

Just added defense, that is all. 62 DEF is just at par with Windspun Armor (65 DEF), but not everyone can wear the latter. Earth Armor has 49 DEF + Earth resistance, so one would probably prefer this or Master Garb any day.

But then again, I am trying to maximize DEF for potential Firefly tanks as part of my recent experiment on the Kobolds, especially Gengen. Setting up one-slotters as DDs are rather easy, if you ask me, but of course they're nowhere near as effective as two or three slotters.
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Punkaiser
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by Punkaiser »

So that armor is a bit lame compared to Silver armor which got just 7 def less and even heal you per round.
For a character who has only 1 rune slot and wanna tank, I would save that slot for something else other than firefly and make sure in my pt there are 2 women wearing blue ribbon and stay in front row with that character(there're not manya archer type in game anyway). Loosing 2 accessories slots is better trade than 1 rune slot imo.
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veeshadow
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by veeshadow »

Yeah rune slot means everything. Gengen also has more potential as damage dealer (Double Beat/Killer) with TANK EQUIPMENTS, on my gameplay he never got counter from enemy and deal critical periodically plus take lesser damage and some good evade as well. Heck even I can set him up as lightning mage with D affinity for my videos and my party can wipe few bosses in 1-2 turns and no heal.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by ninjaluc79 »

The thing is there's only one Silver Armor in the game, but you can farm for Blood Armors off Chimeras. But yeah, Blood Armor is still lame because it damages the user per turn. Besides, top-tier armors are only limited to your final party anyway, so it comes down to what kind of party you have.

If you have an all-light armor party, you can have two tanks at most: one shielder and one non-shielder, the rest mages or DDs. But to me Water-resisting equipment is important for the Final Boss because it's pretty much the only boss in the game with Water-elemental attacks, but you won't probably bother if you can dispatch the Silver Wolf in 1-2 turns anyway.

I think you meant long-ranged mages, because there's quite a lot of long-range females in the game, but not all of them can be good mages, if you're into that sort of thing.

And here, as promised, my analysis on the Kobold duo of Gengen and Gabocha!

Kobold Pride

Name / Level / STR / TECH / MAG / SPD / PROT / MDEF / LUCK / HP / MP
Gengen / 60 / 125 / 145 / 105 / 125 / 125 / 85 / 160 / 550 / 7/4/2/1
Gabocha / 60 / 105 / 160 / 105 / 145 / 105 / 105 / 160 / 500 / 7/4/2/1

Pros
- Can wear the Necklace family of accessories which has one of the best defense values in the games.
- High critical rates (9.5% and 10%, respectively)
- Fairly serviceable unite attack (Kobold Attack, 1x dmg to 1 enemy) which has 20% chance to upgrade into 100 Kobold Attack (3x dmg to all enemies).

Cons
- They only have one rune slot, which leaves less room for customizability.
- Low magic defense
- Kobold attack Unbalances Gabo and 100 Kobold Attack is too rare to become truly useful.

The Kobold race is one of the three houses of Two River City, and as such has been in charge of the city's military affairs under the command of an incredibly badass general named Ridley Wizen. He's so famous among all the Kobolds in Jowston that when he calls for battle, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM will go with him WITHOUT QUESTION.

Gengen and Gabocha are two such Kobolds. They have some similarities with the Toran Kobolds Kuromimi and Gon, except that the latter pair are leaders of their own community, while the former pair are not.

Despite this, they still share the unique Kobold traits of unparalled bravery, never-say-die attitude, strength, and skill in combat. There is a reason why Ridley Wizen's unit is one of the most powerful army units in the game.

Sadly, these two are some of the most underused characters in the game, usually because of their low HP and defense and one rune slot leading to limited customization options.

There are three main builds for Gen, two for Gabo.

The Might of the Kobolds

Basically, this build revolves around making them physical damage dealers (DDs). Due to their one rune slot, they aren't as effective as the likes of Sheena and Killey. Nonetheless, one can depend on their Unite Attack, the Kobold Attack, to do decent work against bosses.

Double-Beat, Double-Strike, Violence, Friendship and Exertion are some of the runes they can use to deal high damage.

For this example, we will examine the Kobold Attack.

Let us set DS, Exertion, and Friendship as the runes used. Gen has ~275 base ATK, Gabo has ~240 base ATK. Gen wears the Flame Helmet (STR+4), both of them wear Master Garbs(+15) and Power Rings(+20) (one for each).

Gen: DS / Exertion
Gabo: DS / Friendship

Normal DMG vs a 0 DEF opponent = (275 + 39 + 240 + 35 + 54) * 1.5 = 964
Maximum Exertion Value = (314 * 2.2 + 329) * 1.5 = 1529
Both Berserk = 1529 * 1.5 = 2294

Now, let us replace Gen's DS with Violence and activate its effect. Let us assume Violence and Berserk statuses do not stack.

Violence + Exertion DMG = 314 * 3 * 2.2 + 329 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 2812

Now, suppose the 100 Kobold Attack activated.

100 Kobold Attack = 2812 * 3 = 8436

Now that kind of damage can one-shot the Beast Rune if it has 0 DEF. But of course, BR is kind of tough.

As for the setup:

Runes: DS, DB*, Violence, Friendship, Exertion, Down
Armors:
- Flame Helm and Mangosh (for increased counter-attack rate) for Gengen, Wind Hat for Gabocha
- Master Garbs, Power Rings, Thunder Amulets (for hit rate), and Skill or Luck Rings (for hit and critical rate) for both.
*DB is better suited for Gabocha because L-ranged characters cannot be countered, but you can try this on Gengen if he has high enough DEF to absorb the 2x counter DMG. Gold and Silver Necklaces can help with this.

Stone Wall Gengen

This build revolves around giving Gengen tanking abilities despite his sub-par HP for a tank (~560 vs ~680 and up for most commonly used tanks). As mentioned above, Necklaces have some of the highest DEF values in the game, such as the Silver Necklace (17) and the Gold Necklace (21, MDEF + 5). One can go for a full MDEF set because Gengen has low MDEF.

You can give him pretty much any rune you like, Firefly or otherwise, but you will only need a Flowing Rune on your weapon if you decide to use the Blood Armor, but yeah, waste of rune slots. You might as well give him DD runes so he can tank AND deal damage at the same time. How about that?

Full MDEF Set

Flame Helmet (30)
Silver Armor (55)
Earth Shield (36)
Water Amulet (6)
Wind Amulet (12)
Thunder Amulet (9)
--------------------
125 PROT + 148 DEF = 273 PDEF, +10 HP per turn

For the final dungeon, you can have this to get 300 DEF without using Blood Armor:

Flame Helmet (30)
Silver Armor (55)
Earth Shield (36)
Water Amulet (6)
Gold Necklace (21)
Wind Amulet (12)
Mother Earth Rune on WPN (15)
--------------------
125 PROT + 175 DEF = 300 PDEF, +15 HP per turn

Even better than my previous setting with the Blood Armor:

Flame Helmet (30)
Blood Armor (62)
Silver Shield (27)
Water Amulet (6)
Gold Necklace (21)
Wind Amulet (12)
Mother Earth Rune on WPN (15)
--------------------
125 PROT + 173 DEF = 298 PDEF, -5 HP per turn

What I like about the full MDEF set is that Gengen can resist anything with it to help mitigate his very low MDEF. I only replaced the Thunder and Wind Amulets for the second build because the enemies in L'Renouille use only Fire (Magus, Chimera), Earth (Bronzem), and Water (Beast Rune) elemental attacks (I think the Beast Rune has a Wind element attack, but I'm not sure).

As mentioned above, you can use pretty much any rune for this build because it's mostly armor dependent. If you can live with a 280 DEF DD better than a 300 DEF full-fledged tank, fine.

Kobolds of Nature

The Kobolds Gengen and Gabocha have bad elemental affinities across the board (D affinity to all elements but Earth, Gengen can't use Water runes), but they can safely use Earth runes despite having E affinity (+20% damage, can backfire) to it because Earthquake is their only offensive spell. This makes them solid support magic knights for those who like magic or those who are too lazy to do complex customization.

Although Gabocha can use Water runes, he won't be able to heal that much HP with his low MAG (105) and bad Water affinity (-20% damage), so it's not worth it. If Kindness Rain heals only 320 HP at level 60 when the Beast Rune can deal that much damage in one turn, you know you're screwed if you set up Gabo as your back-up healer to Riou.

Overall

Gengen
Damager: C
Tank: C
Support: C
Mage: D
Overall: C

Gabocha
Damager: C
Tank: E
Support: C
Mage: D
Overall: C

EDIT: Changed the Mage grades when I realized that offensive runes can become broken even with low affinities when used correctly.
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veeshadow
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by veeshadow »

Either kobolds are more effective to pair with Shiro in my opinion. Bow wow has no unbalance penalties, no gamble, short animation, and higher base damage. But Gabocha is weaker version of Kinnison while I think I'm gonna use another character instead for back row parties, so that's leave Gengen/Badeaux to choose as Shiro's partner. I choose Gengen with his availability since start on game and you can bring them both on any restricted mission like Sindar Ruins/Greenhill/Tinto. Their magic is so-so but still nice if you combine them that I can finish few bosses in 1-2 turns..

Haha screw that, maybe just try analyze Shiro. He's a bit unique with many possible pairs with him...
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Punkaiser
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by Punkaiser »

It's nice effort for that long post but i don't think it's realitic enough to be done or just for fun.
Battle oath has 50% to cause berserk. We would only have 0.5*0.5=0.25=25% chance to get both gengen and gabocha in fury state.
Kobold 100 trigger at 20%-> possibility to get both kobolds berserk+100 kobold unite= 0.25*0.2=0.05= 5%
with that low percentage i think even the 3% instant death from 5 squirrels unite should be almost good enough then.

***Is this unite better or should we let them normal hit with double beat?
In term of consistency, i guess letting both kobolds normal attack is on par with this unite:
80% deal 1x with 20% deal 3x

A/ For unite attack, I suppose gengen pure damage=314 with exertion and gabocha =329 and double strike is set for both

1> damage part from 100 kobold :
0.2 * 3 * 1.5 * (314*1.2 +329)= 635.22

2> damage part from 1x unite:
0.8 * 1.5 * (314*1.2 + 329 )= 847.96
-> average unite damage = 635.22 + 847.96 = 1483.16
here im considering the battle would only last one turn or else the pair will suffer more from gabocha's penalty for staying unbalanced.

B/What if they normal attack with double beat and thunder/rage in weapon?
I suppose again their critical rate is only 8% -> 8% to deal 3x damage and 92% to deal 1x, in average they got 1.16x damage modifier.
gengen average damage=314*2(dble beat)*1.5(rage)*1.16(crit)=1092.72
gabocha average damage=294*2*1.5*1.16=1023.12
-> their total damage = 1092.72 + 1023.12 = 2115.84
and there's a little chance to miss along with chance to multi hit which overall nullify each other's score or penalty.

This is why double beat with weapon element runes ruin most unite attacks in suikoden 2. I'm happy that I don't have to see them in later suikodens.
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by CCByouknowme »

Hey Ninjaluc79, why don't you do one for my beloved Gantetsu!! Like I posted in the topic "Underdogs a common theme", I have Gantetsu set up as a physical fighter! I understand he is 1 of the 4 inborn Magus's in the game but use him as a fighter and you might be shocked at the damage he can do!! I usually level him up to 99 but at 66 or 70 he is still just as good. I put these Runes in his 3 slots! Fury, Gale, and Doublebeat! His weapon rune I choose Exertion. I also put 2 Fire emblems on him and a Skill ring to boost his Str and Tech. Why don't you try this? Even though his Damage potential isn't as great as fighters like Victor, Pesmerga, Sheena, and George; he can still take on enemies near the end of the game with EASE!!!



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ninjaluc79
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by ninjaluc79 »

Haha, I like your passion for Gantetsu. Will try to use him later.
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CCByouknowme
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by CCByouknowme »

Also could you do one for Koyu? Not exactly the best individual character but his unite attack with the other bandits is not that bad! If you equip one of them with the Cup of Promise and have Fury Runes on them! Anyway, he is still one of my favorite underdog characters in the game next to Gantetsu of course!



Edited: On a quick note, I usually leave the Gale Rune equipped on him as well. But if you want him to be a Damage Dealer you have to take that Rune off him. Although, with that kind of speed he usually gets a lot of multiple hits!
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by ninjaluc79 »

Bumping this while preparing my next character analysis.

Which, if it comes to it, I would rather accept character analysis requests than choose a character myself.

So far, the requests I've received are Gantetsu, Shiro, and Koyu (and by extension, Lo Wen and Gijimu).
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by ninjaluc79 »

I'm feeling lazy lately, so I used my spare time to build a Magician Tiers List. It's still not complete yet, as I still have to determine whether some characters can equip the Blue Gate Rune or not.

Some characters cannot equip *Blue Gate even if they have the Head Rune slot for it. A prime example is Gantetsu. However, he can use other elemental runes or convert him into a physical attacker or have him do both physical attacks and magic, whichever you see fit.

My observations so far:

1. Luc is by and far the best dedicated magician in Suikoden 2, with Mazus in close second.
2. Jowy actually beats out Flik for the title of Suikoden 2's best Rune Knight.
3. Elemental affinities seem to be the X-factor for characters with low MAG stats but high affinities in certain elements such as Nina and Millie. Both can rank pretty high in their respective elemental tiers (Fire for Nina and Lightning for Millie) despite having sub-par MAG stats (145 and 125 at level 60, respectively).
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Re: Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

Post by ninjaluc79 »

Bumping this up for posterity.

Character analysis requests I have so far:

- Gantetsu
- Shiro
- Lampdragon Bandits (Koyu, Gijimu, and Lo Wen)

I will accept more analysis requests for the meantime, but I have to finish the above first.

Thanks.
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