Anyone up for a Character Usage Manual?

[KFCrispy]

^ Good idea, but does Badeaux's Howling Rune activate before Shiro attacks? I doubt it.. but is there is an easy way to get him to cast before the Double Beat Shiro or the Shiro+Kinnison unite go? (I am thinking Spark? but not sure if that affects spells.... and we'd need a fourth character with high speed (Stallion probably) just to activate Spark) I doubt Gale on Badeaux will give him enough SPD...

Hmmm Howling Rune... does it work on Bob as a Werewolf??? Does it work on Kobolds?? i am guessing not just because both these characters are "human-like" while the other characters needed Listening Crystals just to communicate to humans.

[ninjaluc79]

Badeaux's SPD = 04 (~120 @ level 60)
Shiro's SPD = 07 (~180 @ level 60)

The idea is to make Badeaux's actual SPD (before placing Gale on him) greater than two-thirds (2/3) of Shiro's actual SPD, and that would cause problems in the game because stat growths are random, and it could be possible that Badeaux may not be able to obtain 2/3 of Shiro's SPD even at high enough levels to complete the game.

Not without the Speed-boosting accessories of course. Fortunately, Shiro is a beast-type character, so he can't equip armor.

Hmmm... Let's see...

Badeaux can wear Windspun Armors (SPD + 15). Check.
He can also wear Speed Rings (SPD + 15). Check.
He can also wear Winged Boots (SPD + 10). Check.
He can also wear Wind Amulets (SPD + 10), which is redundant with Windspun Armor unless you only want the Speed bonus. Check.
BUT, he can't wear Wind Hats. Oh, well.

All that, plus Gale Rune, Badeaux has a total speed of about:

120 (base at level 60) * 1.5 (Gale Rune) + 15 (Windspun Armor) + 15 (Speed Ring) + 10 (Winged Boots) = 220 SPD at level 60

which is good enough for a 08 stat, more than enough to cope up with Shiro's SPD. That way, you can get Badeaux to use the Howling Rune before Shiro attacks.

Perfect.

[KFCrispy]

nice! maybe i'll actually use him in a party if i play again! i didn't think too much about stat (SPD) manipulation until Suikoden III with the swing-business, but this is pretty interesting.

[ninjaluc79]

Well, I just learned about SPD manipulation from an experiment involving McDohl and Luc. For some reason, somebody wanted McDohl to cast spells first before Luc, which is possible by equipping SPD-boosting equipment on McDohl to make his SPD substantially greater than Luc's.

My guess is that SPD determines turn order first, then TECH, as evidenced by my previous playthroughs. For the past ones, Jowy tends to gain more SPD than Riou despite both having equal SPD growths at 06, but Riou has higher TECH than Jowy (07 > 06), so Riou attacks first in the event that he and Jowy have the exact same SPD.

I haven't tested tie-breakers on turn order thoroughly yet, so it's just a guess.

The above example of the Badeaux/Shiro party makes use of turn order determination to maximize the damage dealer's potential while dealing with unique runes and limited rune slots.

Only Badeaux can equip Gale under this setup, as the objective is to make Badeaux's SPD substantially higher than Shiro's so that Badeaux can use Howling before Shiro attacks. You may consider bringing in a 08 SPD Spark Rune bearer to make slower party members attack before enemies do, or you may as well bring in an above-average SPD party so you won't have to waste your rune slots on *Spark.

[KFCrispy]

SPD definitely controls turn order, but support spells get an advantage and can often cast before a higher SPD character attacks.

[ninjaluc79]

Sorry for the long wait, but as promised, Hix and Tengaar!

Hix and Tengaar are from the Warriors' Village. They are the typical "Sword and Sorcery" duo.

While not as great a swordsman as his fellow Warrior tribesman Flik, he is one who must not be taken lightly, especially when his beloved Tengaar's safety is at stake.

On the other hand, Tengaar possesses a high proficiency in magic, as she is descended from Klift the Paladin, the man who founded the Warrior's Village after fighting Hikusaak the High Priest of Harmonia to a stalemate.

Average Stats @ level 60:

Name / STR / TECH / MAGIC / SPEED / PROT / MDEF / LUCK / HP
Hix / 125 / 145 / 100 / 145 / 125 / 125 / 160 / 550
Tengaar / 100 / 125 / 160 / 145 / 100 / 145 / 145 / 550

As you can see, Hix has better physical stats, and Tengaar has better magical stats.

Equipment and Rune Setups

Hix's equipment setup is rather simple as he is mainly an S-ranged physical attacker. He already has an Exertion Rune permanently equipped so setting him up becomes really easier.

The real downside, however, is his one rune slot, so you can't twink him as much as the likes of Sheena or Killey.

*Double-Beat sure can make him attack twice, but at the cost of him taking 2x counter-attack damage, which Hix can't quite handle well due to his low defense for a front-liner.

*Double-Strike is also a good option, and it also stacks with *Exertion's effect of +20% damage per turn. If a battle drags on for long enough Hix can deal as much as 3.3x damage, only at the cost of him taking 1.5x physical damage every time, even when countered.

*Violence is my personal favorite. I used this against Luca Blight, and with max number of turns, Battle Oath on, AND Violence effect on (when his HP is down to half, which is easy to attain considering Luca's insane damage), he can deal as much as 600+ NON-CRITICAL DAMAGE, almost the same damage as Thor Shot! That and with Revenge Earth + Silent Lake on (thus Luca can't use his fire attack) WHILE ALL OF HIX'S BUFFS ARE ON, you can watch Luca helplessly attacking Hix while taking as much as 1.8k damage in one turn!

I also used the above strategy with the Beast Rune, which yielded pretty much the same result, but not as good as those party setups that can One-Hit KO the Beast Rune.

And oh, just in case you want to reserve *Violence for Bob, who benefits the most out of it, you can use *Double-Strike as substitute.

I didn't recommend Fury since you will only need the Berserk status vs. bosses and you can still kill off the mobs in 1-2 turns even with average gears.

So, equipment setups for Hix:

H -----------
Rh * Violence or * Double-Strike
Lh -----------

Head - Wind Hat
Body - Earth Armor / Mole Armor / Silver Armor
Shield - Mangosh / Earth Shield
Accessories - Fire Emblem
Thunder Amulet
Water Amulet

The reason I recommend this equipment setup is that the mobs at L'Renouille have rather nasty elemental attacks, such as Magus' Flaming Arrows, Chimera's Fire Breath, and Bronzem's Earthquake Attack. And oh, the Beast Rune's spells are mostly Water-elemental, so Water resistance REALLY helps a lot to reduce damage from those.

The Mangosh in Suikoden II is rather special: It gives Shield-bearers like Hix 1.5x chance to counter-attack, a VERY important aspect in the game for melee classes as it allows the character to evade AND attack the enemy at the same turn!

Just in case you want to reserve your Earth Armor to your best Light-Armor character, you may instead use Silver Armor for HP regen + more DEF, or Mole Armor for Earth Resistance. You may also use the Earth Shield instead of Mole Armor, but you will lose out on the counter-attack boost, and you would probably reserve the Earth Shield to your best Shield-bearer.

_____________________

Tengaar is pretty much like your secondary mage if you have better mages like Luc, Mazus, or Rina, with her above-average MAG stat, 2 free rune slots, and B affinities to Earth, Fire, Wind, and Resurrection.

1. Tengaar as Ranged Damager

Not really that great as the other damagers, but with the right equipment Tengaar can dish a pack.

100 STR + 140 Weapon ATK = 240 ATK

With *Double-Beat, *Double-Strike, and *Friendship vs a 100 DEF opponent:

(240 - 100 + 54) * 2 * 1.5 = 582 normal damage, 1746 critical damage

With the DB/DS/Exertion combo @ max Exertion value:

(240 - 100 ) * 2 * 1.5 * 2.2 = 924 normal damage, 2772 critical damage

Hm. Not bad. I didn't recommend *Kindness since with the glitch everyone except the animals and Gadget will have the same damage potential if all of them wear that rune. Best Damage-type Weapon Runes after Kindness would be Exertion and Friendship.

As I have posted in earlier topics, L-ranged characters like Tengaar benefit the most from DB since L-ranged characters can't be countered, unlike S-ranged characters who can be countered, thus making DB like a double-edged sword for them.

2. Back-Up Mage

As mentioned above, Tengaar has B affinities to Earth, Fire, Wind, and Resurrection. The vast variety of runes she is good at makes her a more versatile magician than the others.

- She can act the Support Mage role with Water + Earth, Earth + Wind, Water/Earth + Resurrection, or Water + Wind rune combinations. Water Dragon (Water + Wind, heals 800 HP to allies, 800 DMG to all Es) is one of the best Supportive Rune Unites in the game, which can heal all allies and damage all enemies at the same time.

- She can also act as the Offensive Mage, but not as strong as the likes of Luc or Mazus. She is better suited as a Fire Mage offensively, but you won't probably have use for Fire Mages late-game anyway. However, you may want to try the Scorched Earth (Earth + Fire) or Blazing Camp (Fire + Lightning) just in case.

So basically, Tengaar is best suited as a Supportive Mage since the Fire Rune will not be as useful late-game as it was early-game.

Equipment Setup:

Dart Master Tengaar

H ---------------
Rh *Double-Beat
Lh *Double-Strike

Head Wind Hat OR Mole Helm
Body Robe of Mist OR Dream Robe
Accessories Thunder Amulet
Power Ring OR Water Amulet (if Dream Robe is equipped)
Power Ring OR Wind Amulet (if Mole Helm is equipped)

Whether you go MDEF or Power type is your preference.

Magician Tengaar

Any rune combination that triggers a Rune Unite will do, but if you want to give Tengaar the ability to revive allies, you may use the Earth/Water + Resurrection combo.

Head Wind Hat OR Mole Helm
Body Robe of Mist OR Mole Armor
Accessories Thunder Amulet
Wind Amulet OR Water Amulet
Magic Ring OR Guard Ring


BUT, what really takes the cake if you have them in the party is their Unite Attack which does INSANE DAMAGE. 2x damage to one enemy, but Hix takes damage. I did as high as 1.2k damage against Luca Blight!

My final decision:

Hix
Damager : B
Tank : C
Mage : E
Support : C
Overall: C


Tengaar
Damager : C
Tank : E
Mage : B
Support : B
Overall: B

[Ellyos]

This topic is very interesting. Good luck on this heavy task you have started

[Vermillion.Haze]

I love using Zamza against Luca Blight. Stick a fire sealing rune on him to negate both his own self inflicted damage and 90% of Luca's firepower and he can pretty much beat Luca Blight solo.

Good example of a boss specific character that shines brightest during a pivotal moment in the game.

[ninjaluc79]

Ah, yes, Zamza. Pretty much the only way you can spam his Fire Dragon Rune is through Fire Sealing Rune. The drawback is that other than Exertion, Friendship, and the Kindness glitch, there's no other way to increase his damage further.

Another use for Zamza is a Fire Mage. With an A affinity in Fire and decent MP, he's one of the best Fire Mages in the game. Too bad you don't have any much use for a Fire Mage end-game as the mobs' resistances are ridiculously high and you can just Auto-Battle your way through the mobs anyway. And his affinities to other elements are mediocre at best (D in Wind, C in everything else).

I say use Zamza just to be different. Against Luca Blight, you can laugh at how much damage he deals him with his fire attacks while Zamza keeps on spamming Fire Dragons after Fire Dragons.

[ninjaluc79]

BTW, I have Meg/Gadget and Gengen/Gabocha left. I'm also thinking about the Rokkaku Ninjas and Valeria/Tomo.

A side note about Tomo: Only she and Luc have an Earth affinity of A. Nobody else.

So which characters would you like to discuss?

[ninjaluc79]

Meg and Gadget

Meg is Juppo's niece from Suikoden I. Juppo sent her off to walk the earth in search for adventure as part of her training to become a Trickster. He gave her the machine Karakuri-maru (Gadget) to accompany her.

Meg and Gadget are two under-used characters in Suikoden 2, a game where people tend to favor damagers like Fliktor, Sheena, and Killey; and excellent support mages such as Luc and Rina.



Though Meg has low ATK and DEF, she makes up for it with her high critical rate (10.78%), L-ranged weapon (she gets to sit at the back and cannot be countered) and high Lightning and Wind affinities. Her other disadvantages are low MP and a once-per-turn-only command rune.

Gadget has the highest natural DEF in the game, making it a very efficient physical tank. However, it has low HP for a real tank, low damage, and low MDEF. With Meg equipped with Lubricating Oil, it can decimate entire enemy parties with his unite attack with her which turns it into Super Karakurimaru. Such event is definitely an interesting sight for those who love this character.

Enough with the introduction, here we go! Karakurimaru, Maximize!

________________

Meg Setups

1. Trick Master Meg

Meg's *Trick deals 3x damage to one enemy, and is usable only once per battle. The best setup to maximize its damage is the Violence or Double-Strike + Exertion combo.

We will not be using the data above, as it is slightly inaccurate. Let us assume instead that Meg has 100 STR and level 16 weapon (140 ATK). Calculations are as follows vs a 100 DEF opponent:

Max Normal Damage = 140 * 3 * 2.2 * 1.5 (Berserk) = 1386
Critical Damage = 1386 * 3 = 4158
Trick Damage = 140 * 3 * 2.2 * 1.5 * 3 = 4158

Well, before you say *Trick is not worth it, note that the Trick Rune is best used as a finishing move rather than a spammable command rune. And you can't rely on critical hits all the time because the highest critical rate in the game is only 11.25%, Even if true critical rates are 6x of that, there's still a small chance that critical hits don't connect. Sure, you can place *Killer for that, but you will lose out on the extra damage that *Violence or *Double-Strike can give.

As always, *Double-Strike is the best alternative for *Violence if you only want to maximize Meg's Trick damage.

SETUP:

H ------------------
Rh *Violence OR *Double-Strike
Lh *Trick
WPN *Exertion

Wind Hat
Robe of Mist
Lucky Ring (permanent)*
Power Ring
Power Ring

* Meg actually has an 07 LUCK growth, but it appears as a 08 growth due to this permanent Lucky Ring.

2. Damage Dealer Meg and Super Karakuri-maru

Well, since Meg is L-ranged, she has low STR and Weapon ATK, so she's not a really good DD. But you can make her attack twice per turn with *Double-Beat without getting countered. And more attacks, more chances to deal critical hits. Yeah.

I found interest in her Unite Attack with Gadget since it only counts Gadget's ATK power in the damage calculation, and there's really no way to increase that since Gadget can't wear any armor. Well, unless you won the Lubricating Oil item from the Rope Climbing Game. Normally, Gagdet has pathetic physical damage, but once he transforms into Super Karakurimaru with Lubricating Oil equipped to Meg, he can decimate or soften a party of Highland soldiers at L'Renouille without breaking a sweat. Really.

SETUP:

H ------------------
Rh *Double-Beat
Lh *Trick
WPN *Exertion OR *Rage OR *Thunder OR *Down

Wind Hat
Robe of Mist
Lucky Ring (permanent)
Skill Ring
Lubricating Oil

Now, before you go nuts, Skill Ring adds TECH, which contributes to her already high critical rate. And Critical Hits can cause Unbalance! How about that?

3. Thunder Storm Meg

As the build name implies, Meg has an affinity rank of A to Lightning and Wind. The only major gripe with this build is that Meg has low MP, so she can use only so many spells. But hey, who doesn't like 2 charges of Thor Shot or 4 charges of The Shredding? But there's only one Cyclone Rune in the game, right? Normally, yes. But if you entered the code which enables you to encounter Chimeras at Tenzan Pass, you just have unlocked a great supply base of Cyclone Runes for your enjoyment.

However, you may want to use her as a back-up support mage, though she has an E affinity to Earth and C affinity to Water. So, Kindness Rain would be so-so, and Earthquake can backfire. But Guardian Earth would truly be awesome to use, so use *Mother Earth if you want to.

So, use *Thunder if you want Meg as an anti-boss cannon, *Cyclone if you want her to be able to clear mobs on her own, *Flowing if you want to have her focused on healing, and *Mother Earth for the Canopy Defense and Guardian Earth buffs.

SETUP:

H ------------------
Rh *Thunder OR *Cyclone OR *Flowing OR *Mother Earth
Lh *Trick
WPN *Rage OR *Thunder OR *Down

Wind Hat
Robe of Mist
Lucky Ring (permanent)
Skill Ring
Lubricating Oil

I won't write about Gadget anymore because he can't be customized, and his only use is for tanking physical attacks.

---------------------

[Punkaiser]

SPD definitely controls turn order, but support spells get an advantage and can often cast before a higher SPD character attacks.

From some recent tests, it appears to me that when the character cast a support spell, his speed boosts up 1.5 times for that turn:

82 speed badeaux casts howling rune before 107 speed feather (unite attack with sigfried) while 64 speed viki always cast kindness rain after that unite's turn. I bet once Viki reaches 72 speed, her turn will come faster than the beasts

[gildedtalon]

82 speed badeaux casts howling rune before 107 speed feather (unite attack with sigfried) while 64 speed viki always cast kindness rain after that unite's turn. I bet once Viki reaches 72 speed, her turn will come faster than the beasts

give her speed ring and try again?

[Punkaiser]

With one speed ring she will have 79 speed, almost equal to badeaux. I'd rather test with speed stone trick.

[ninjaluc79]

I tried equipping Badeaux with Windspun Armor and Winged Boots. With this setup, he has only +7 SPD advantage vs Feather, but his Howling Rune always comes first before Feather attacks. Good enough, yes?

Will post the Kobolds and the beasts later.

EDIT: Howling Rune works for Shiro, but not the Kobolds.