A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

A forum to ask questions if you are stuck in the The Gate Rune Wars; or wish for more clarity on the gameplay systems.
mpieco
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Long Beach, NY

A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby mpieco » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:30 am

I'm set to sit down and start writing this. When analyzing characters, I will first break them down into an agreeable tier list. I will describe the advantages of the character as it relates to statistics, wearable armor, unites, importance to plot/how early you can get them, and some other intangibles.

Here's what I think for the first two tiers. Let's use this to work off of--I am asking for your input. Should anyone in the top tier be moved down? Should anyone from the second tier move up/down? Is there anyone not in these first two tiers that you think should be? Let the discussion begin.

First Tier
Tir--obvious
Flik--get him early, great stats, shield, moveable rune. well-known and well-loved character.
Cleo--get her early, great stats, back line attacker/mage, heavy armor wearer, great story line
Luc--get him early, arguably the best magician, some set armor, and has to backline, but STILL worth it
Tengaar--get her mid-game/end, arguably the best long-range attacking magician (her v. cleo), light armor, but higher magic
Sonya--although you get her at the end, she is great. best short-range mage, tremendous speed.
Crowley--best pure mage along with luc. get him later, but comes with the cyclone. slightly higher magic stat.

Out of the first tier, I'm debating on whether I should move sonya down, but having THAT fast of a healer (flowing/cyclone) is a pretty big deal.

Second Tier
Viktor--tough to put on the first tier because of the low skill mark. remedied by master garb + 2 mangosh, but they're difficult to come by.
Alen--Flik with a rage rune. it's fixed. don't get him as early.
Grenseal--Flik with a thunder rune. it's fixed. don't get him as early.
Rubi--fast, back-row mage. has a great unite with kirkis/sylvina.
Kirkis--fast, back-row mage. enormous skill (good crit rate). great unite with rubi/sylvina. get him early.
Sheena--the poor man's flik. It's a shame the lightning rune is fixed. great overall stats.
Valeria--falcon rune abuse. get her early. nice stats. can wear a shield.
Ronnie Bell--hate rune is great. can put her in the back row and just let her go to town. thinking of bumping her down a tier...
Camille--the poor man's tir. will counter a lot with great skill. can mage well. does a lot of what tir does, but not as well.


The guide itself will have explanations that go into much more detail about suggested uses and armor setups, and other pros/cons. I just wanted to give a brief idea of what I was thinking when I considered certain characters. As of now, I'm considering bumping Sonya down, especially since you get her so late, and also bumping Ronnie Bell down, because although she's essentially Valeria, with lighter armor and no shield.

I'm more than prepared to justify why I left other characters out of these first two tiers. I'm still considering names for them, but any suggestions on names and amount of tiers (i'm currently working with 5) would be considered.

User avatar
Punkaiser
Posts: 644
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:21 am

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:37 pm

i've always wanted to see a topic of this kind in every suikoden, knowing that ninjaluc started one for suikoden 2, it's way better and more useful than favorite topics. I'll cheer you up with this work, but guess you will face alot of negative comments, hope you don't mind to bear with mine first :D

-Flik: i won't rate him this high, he has good physical stats and decent but not high magical potential(got just one 4th spell at lv60), participate in a decent unite of x2 damage but requires 3 persons who are all short range fighters, this will bug us in forming party. Bref, He does his best at: freewill/healer/unite. He doesnt stand out in both regular and boss battle. Flik fan must have prepared rotten tomatoes waitting for me, but i will put him to 2nd tier at best.
-Cleo: a little correction, she can equip heavy helmet but not armor, but it doesnt affect her rank since shes not going to tank anyway.
-Kirkis/sylvina/stallion: each of them alone won't be much of a deal since their str/magic growth aren't great. But when they are together , that makes a good cover all tactic, Stallion got us "holy" rune, Kirkis/Sylvina have decent magic to hold support/offensive runes, in regular battle 2 of them could perform the hitall unite while in boss battle they can co-op for x2 damage. So i'd like to add this whole team to your 2nd tier list.
-Sheena:Magical Flik with fixed regular rune and no shield? i'd move him out of your list, even teaming up with his mama and papa won't bring much benefit.
-Ronnie Bell should stay there, she has weaker defence set but higher damage potential thanks to claw growth stats(compared to Valeria)
-Camille: i don't see much usage for her, her only good stats is skill which meant to help with normal hit and hope for critical chance. Unite with other girls cause unbalance and unsolvable since kasumi has her fixed rune. Camille stays just a so so character to me, not worth mentionning. What makes her better than Mace besides being early recruit?
-If Tengaar is enlisted, why not Lotte, they are pretty much the same.

And again, i think you're missing to mention several unite teams, unite attack is there to improve a character's usefuless,right?
-Varkas/Sydonia: early recruits, both can stay in back row or we can push heavy armored Varkas tank in front row. Varkas has good physical stats , possible holy rune holder, sydonia has decent str/speed/magic to support and initiate their awesome unite.
-Anji/Leonardo/Kanak: this pirate crew seems to never grab anyone's attention but they are actually good. All 3 may stay in back row. Leonardo and Anji have very good physical offence stats while speedy kanak may initiate their x 2.5 unite really well. 3 free rune slots at choice.
-Ninja team Kasumi/Fuma/Kage, they are decent statswise, speedy and have x2.5 attack together. All of them can stay in back row.
-Milia/Futch: Both have nice physical stats. both may wield shield, both are midrange attackers. Futch can start their unite quickly due to high speed. Holy rune for Milia, water/flowing rune is good for futch.
-Juppo/Meg: another pair for cover all tactic, unite to attack all in regular encounters then both can use trick rune in boss battle. Both are backrow fighters with decent stats.

mpieco
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Long Beach, NY

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby mpieco » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:53 am

I'm not sure what happened. Either you don't know the game that well, or you kind of misunderstood what I'm doing here.

Anyway, let's do a blind test first.

Character A: Power: 106, Speed: 136, Skill: 152, Magic: 175
Character B: Power: 95, Speed: 138, Skill: 113, Magic: 152

Character A is Tengaar. Character B is Lotte. How on earth are they the same character? Tengaar has on average 10 more power and over 20 more magic. She can also sit in the back row and attack with free will (since she is long-ranged). Not to mention, she also has higher defense. She has a weak weapon, but thanks to the skill number, she does crit fairly often.

Lotte has much lower damage capability, must sit on the front-row, unless you want to waste a back-line slot when you're free-willing, and has lower defense to boot. Lower magic of course means lower MP. She is nothing like Tengaar. I'd compare Lotte to Hellion, and a very weak version of Hellion at that.

Anyway, yes, unites are something I will consider, but just because someone has a cool unite doesn't mean they belong in the "God Tier" or "Game-breaking" tier. Their ability to function on their own is the most important indicator still. I wasn't "forgetting" any unites...the thread isn't about cool unites. It's about a character analysis guide, and the first step I wanted to make was tiering the characters.

Also, at level 55 Sheena has the 2nd highest aggregate stat total. Second to Tir. The second highest. In the game. All stats above 120. He is a heck of a lot better than you think. I'd say he belongs on the second tier even though he is stuck with the lightning rune. There certainly aren't more than 10-12 characters that are better than him.

Flik meanwhile, other than Defense (he can carry a shield) and Luck (oh no he won't dodge!) his stats are all above 135 at level 55. His power is tremendous for a sword-user (most of the high power guys tend to be fists/unique weapon). He has high health relative to most. He's important to the story-line and very well-liked. You get him early-ish. I don't think there's a question about Flik.

I'm getting tired of refuting all your silly points, so I'll end with this one: Camille vs....MACE? While Mace has high power, he is a little handicapped by the fact he can only max his weapon out at 15. That, plus the fact that you get him so late definitely warrants the third tier (which is where I have him). Camille, meanwhile, has higher speed, skill, and magic. She can mage/attack, counter well if you want to front-line her, and is basically a Tir-lite. While I could certainly see putting her at the very top of tier 3, I think the fact that you get her so ridiculously early warrants bottom of tier 2.

Ok, I'm done for now.

Antimatzist
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Germany, yeah baby
Contact:

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:38 am

@Tengaar/Lotte: You know stat growth is "random"? They max out at similar MP, Tengaar being a bit better (20 points). Ok, she has much higher skill, but Lotte can wear better armor (Master Garb vs Master Robe), which also gives her a small Skill boost (still Tengaar has higher skill). Lotte has a bit higher luck - beside from that, they are identical.

mpieco
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Long Beach, NY

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby mpieco » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:48 am

Through 20+ playthroughs, you may say stat growth is "random" but Tengaar has always had at least 20 magic and 10 strength on Lotte.

The bottom line is still front-line vs. back-line. Tengaar can attack from the back-line. Lotte can't. Everything has to be taken into account.

And maxing out is relative, because most people settle around the 55/60 mark.

They are not identical. Tengaar is the better character. Lotte is good too...I'm not saying Lotte is in my bottom tier or anything. I have her in the third tier. I think the superior magic, higher crit rate, and L-range of Tengaar set her apart from Lotte. I'm not really sure why the argument could be made otherwise.


I'm thinking Luc should be moved up to the 2nd overall slot behind Tir, too...

Tir
Luc
Flik
Cleo
Crowley

How about that top 5? Maybe I could put Tengaar and Sonya at the top of 2, since Tengaar seems to be garnering so much hate. Perhaps only a 1 tier difference between Tengaar and Lotte would suffice, but I definitely wouldn't say they're identical. Hardly.

User avatar
Punkaiser
Posts: 644
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:21 am

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 am

You took my opinion as a serious blow huh? It's not like i'm giving a lecture, aren't we discussing? Gasp and take a deep sigh...

You can say Flik is that great, whatever. Tell me what can he do to make him so special to stand in top tier? Something he can do but the others can hardly manage would convince me. But no, the fact is he is an all rounder, a jack of all trade, which mean he's just decent at everything and not best at anything. He isnt one of the best tanker, he isnt one of the top attackers, he can cast one lv4 thunder ..wow... while there's someone who cast it 4-5 times consecutively. Are you still sure he's worthy to stand in top list? >>i hate to blow this to somneone's favorite, in the end his idol must be great no matter what<<

if you want to use little sheena, you gotta place him in front row, hey how cruel of you, leaving the boy with light armor and no shield , average defence...there to be slaughtered. placing him in the back and stay as lighting caster? erh...doesnt sound right. How about placing him in 3rd tier list? :P

I added the unite in because that's the point you didn't take in calculation of your characters ranking, if you truly did, the ranking should have been different than what i've seen. In a game with just plain stats and one rune slot, a damage modifier of 1.5 is already a huge deal. Let's not mention about x3 modifier that will cause Viktor/Flik cry a river.

I even pull Flik down that much, there's no way i'm going to let Camille slide *heheh*, tell me what can this fragile doll do? in front line to get hurt and pray for a counter? or in back row and hope to deal a critical hit sometimes?

mpieco
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Long Beach, NY

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby mpieco » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:29 am

Then what on earth do you propose? That Varkas and Sydonia be considered god like because they have a unite? That Pesmerga be considered god tier because of his massive attack? That Humphrey be considered god-tier because he has massive defense?

I'd rather have Sheena than all of them. Because using Sheena doesn't mean I have to take up TWO slots just to be useful, nor do I have to miss more often than I hit. Also, I can attack OR use magic, and also move before most enemies.

I'd LOVE to see what you tier ranking what would like.

By the way, I'm not even a fan of Flik, so I think your insinuation that I'm obsessed with him is a little silly. I'm going based on stats and usefulness. I can understand moving Flik down a tier, because maybe he should be on the same level as Alen and Grenseal.

I want a discussion, but the way you began it was a little off-base. All I was showing was the first two tiers. Yes, combos are important, but they're not everything.

Antimatzist
Posts: 2563
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Germany, yeah baby
Contact:

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:37 am

mpieco wrote:Through 20+ playthroughs, you may say stat growth is "random" but Tengaar has always had at least 20 magic and 10 strength on Lotte.

The bottom line is still front-line vs. back-line. Tengaar can attack from the back-line. Lotte can't. Everything has to be taken into account.

And maxing out is relative, because most people settle around the 55/60 mark.


http://suikosource.com/games/gs1/guides/statgrowth.php

Identical growth for power, def, speed and hp. Tengaar has a bit better Magic, but it's marginal imo. If we look at Lvl 60 stats, Tengaar is the inly of both to get 7 lvl 4 speels instead of 6 - but only if you're extremely lucky (i.e. always perfect stat growth). And ok, Tengaar has a higher chance for 6 Lvl4 spells, that's an advantadge
I don't exactly know which game mechanic is determined by luck - only evasion or crits too?

Ok, front row vs back row makes a difference, but imo it's not such a weak point (you rate Luc as a top tier character while he has the same magic growth as tengaar, less power, less defense, same speed, same skill, less luck and less hp than lotte, also lotte gets the better armor again. AND he has a short range weapon, too.)
I don't want to say that Lotte is the best character in the game, just saying (like Punkaiser) that Tengaar and Lotte are equal in what they can do. With more rune slots and elemental affinities, this might look completely different.

OT: lol, now that I see it Luc has the chance to never get any growth in his luck stat :D

mpieco
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Long Beach, NY

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby mpieco » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:47 am

Ok, so Tengaar and Flik have been called into question. Clearly they can be moved down. Any other opinions on them?

What about Luc/Crowley? Their magic is massive...they're both always around 215/220 at level 55, whereas Tengaar lags behind in a big way.

Do we all agree with Tir and Cleo? Their overall stats, weapon strength, usefulness, and early addition warrants their being there I believe.

In terms of the second tier, are people proposing that I move Camille out? Are people proposing I put Lotte in? I'm accounting for some of the game's best unites in that tier Flik/Alen/Grenseal, Kirkis/Rubi/Sylvina (even though Sylvina isn't mentioned in that tier). I was debating on placing Kai there since he has that ridiculous unite with Tir, but other than that doesn't offer much--plus he has the fixed Hazy Rune.

How about?

God-Tier
Tir
Cleo
Luc?
Crowley?

Then...
Flik
Viktor
Alen
Grenseal
Rubi
Kirkis
Kai?
Tengaar?


I'm just a bit baffled, that's all. If Luc, Crowley, Flik, Tengaar, etc. don't belong in god tier, who does? Does anyone belong there other than Tir?

KFCrispy
Global Admin
Posts: 5978
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:53 pm

i WOULD put those high-damage 2.5x and 3x dmg unite/rune characters God Tier. for physical attackers, they will provide the highest physical damage out of all physical attackers (the ONLY time someone can beat them is through Double-Beat plus critical hits). then some general rule needs to be formed for mages to be in God Tier that makes them at least as useful as doing 2.5x what the weakest God Tier character (Sydonia) can output.
Note that with a Double-Beat, there are a couple strong characters who CAN deal over 700 damage very often, but not to the same target. Double-Beat in this game only allows you to target 2 different enemies (right?), so it's not so useful for most boss battles..

i agree that someone with overall stats is NOT the way to rank the characters. we should consider features that are failry easy to access (no stat stone cheating, and rune pieces are pretty difficult to work with since you can't swap them around).
is Tir really God Tier material? obviously for random encounters he pretty much cheats with instant death spells and teams up with Kai to cripple mobs. but against bosses I wouldn't place him that high in this game. he has exceptional all-around stats but his damage potential in boss situations is handicapped throughout much of the game. Obviously when he finally gets Judgement, his damage potential spikes and puts him in God Tier levels. but if you're going to consider random battles to judge the overall effectiveness, i suppose he can squeeze in due to the unique abilities, not because he has overall great stats.

i think we have to consider unites and unique runes very heavily in this ranking system because if you're NOT going to play a character with their superior unites or runes, you are seriously nerfing a character for what makes them different from the rest of the pack. And since this is a tier list, you want to rank them based on potential, right?


although we're considering maximum potential for characters, i wouldn't automatically assume Spark Rune is in the party meaning all slow characters won't be punished for being slow, because it's applicable to all characters and it will nerf the character who wears it. i would give a fast character who can use the rune a bump in rankings for the ability effectively provide a good support ability.


another thing to consider is natural elements on weapons (http://suikosource.com/games/gs1/guides/initial.php), simply because it is not normal to get a high number of the rune pieces in this game. you can only farm Water and Wind Rune Pieces. From my experience, it's really really really hard to get a couple Wind Rune Piece drops, making it almost impossible to be able to apply Wind element to all characters. The majority of elemental weaknesses in enemies reside in Wind and Fire, so I say characters with natural Fire or Wind weapons should be given an advantage... Lightning is the 3rd most common weakness, and there are barely any enemies weak to Water and Earth. (bestiary lists elemental weaknesses: http://suikosource.com/games/gs1/guides/bestiary.php)
A lot of times, you will find Cleo (who has really high ATK for L-range) is outdamaged physically by Eileen and Tengaar who have Wind on their weapons....

User avatar
ninjaluc79
Posts: 845
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: The Island Nations
Contact:

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:05 pm

Personally, I would prefer dividing tiers into three sections: Physical DD, Mage, and Tank. That way, one will know which characters they really want to include in their parties.

You need only Physical DDs? Choose based on the Physical DD Tier.

You want mages? Pick one with high MAG and a useful rune slot since there are no affinities in S1.

You want a tank? Pick one with the highest HP, PROT and the best armor selection for maximum defense.

For example, Kwanda is pretty much the only one who can reach 400 DEF without breaking a sweat.
It's not all about knowledge, but it helps.

User avatar
ninjaluc79
Posts: 845
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: The Island Nations
Contact:

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sat May 05, 2012 5:33 am

Say, I'm having a hard time determining the best criteria for damagers. I considered including Critical Rates, but the Crit Rates are so insignificant (one can get 17% Critical with the Killer Rune on Meg) that it doesn't matter even if the attacker has high crit if s/he has low base damage anyway. Unless of course criticals in Suikoden work differently (i.e., 17% Critical actually means 100% Critical for that character).

On the other hand, pure damagers like Fuu and Pes can easily rack up 400 ATK with the proper equipment but are punished by my current criterion because of their low critical rates.

In other news, it surprises me that Mace the Blacksmith ranks pretty high in my current criteria. You might disagree but I say you should at least try him as a DD and see for yourself.

The current DD criteria I had included everything but MAG.

What do you think are the stats should I include as basis for listing DD tiers?
It's not all about knowledge, but it helps.

User avatar
Punkaiser
Posts: 644
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:21 am

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Sat May 05, 2012 8:38 am

For physical DD, the most important criterion should be damage modifier, if this isnt consistent then imo we could count on average and next important thing as you mentionned it, multiplier of which base attack? No matter how we analyze, it won't convince anyone if the actual number appear on screen doesn't support the theory.

I would consider Average output when it comes to critical rate as well. Lets take your Meg sample, in average she has a damage modifier as : 0.17*3 + (1-0.17)*1= 1.34
(17% to deal 3x and 83% to deal 1x)
With that result, equip her a Trick rune might be better option to optimize her physical offence in average. And i'm not sure if we should count double beat rune as x2 damage since it doesnt hit same opponent twice, if you do, then Meg actually has a damage modifer of 2*(average modifier from 11% critical) since we replace killer with double beat rune then.

I'm not surprised about Mace...why the fact that he cant have lv16 weapon sounds so heavy? actually just 14 attack loss while his stats are still good enough for a mid ranger, i didnt underestimate him but don't think he really stands out anyway.

Same for Pesmega, gotta calculate his modifier with killer or double beat rune with that low critical rate and may be even miss rate lol... while Fusulu has a steady 100% x3 modifier with his unite, just has to evaluate how much of a drag to have to use the whole kobold pack in party to enable that modifier.

User avatar
ninjaluc79
Posts: 845
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: The Island Nations
Contact:

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sat May 05, 2012 11:15 pm

Great tip! I never thought of damage mods that way! Although, I still have to test how criticals in Suikoden actually work.

The problem with Double-Beat is that it's not so readily available (only one in the whole game IIRC) compared to Killer (can be bought from the item shop). I think it's better to compare damage outputs of all characters with DB and Killer, respectively, to determine which characters do the best damage with both runes. Say for example, Pes can be great with DB but sucks with Killer, or Meg can be great with Killer but sucks with DB, etc.

All right, I'm working on the DD tiers atm. So far, Fuu, Pes, Pahn, Kasim, and Viktor rank consistently high on the DD tiers with my current criteria. Tai Ho ranks pretty high as well.

Using your method, I found Fuu to be the best DB user damage-wise, and Kasim Hazil for greater chance to hit since Fuu has an abysmal SKL to hit the mobs with.

Therefore, it's good to consider the SKL stat for determining DD tiers since it determines the hit rate. After all, high ATK power is useless if you can't hit anything with it.

It's surprising that Pahn can outdamage EVERYONE, even Killer rune users. So much for the bare-fisted monk.

So, I came up with this criterion for DD's: Highest Potential Damage AND Hit Rate.

If anything, I would like to know an approximate hit rate formula for Suikoden before I go through the DD tiers again.

EDIT: Oh, the elemental properties on weapons, right? But the problem is that it pretty much varies with opponents. Therefore, one can dish ridiculous damage on one enemy type but deals horrendously low damage on another enemy type.

I'm under the impression that we should take into account which elemental weaknesses are the most common. And if the weapon element doesn't match the most common weaknesses, it's a good way to penalize an otherwise great DD character. Which we don't want unless there's a feasible way to farm for the most commonly used elemental properties.

Fire Piece, there's only one in the entire game, and Wind Pieces (Earth in the game) are said to be incredibly tedious to farm.
It's not all about knowledge, but it helps.

KFCrispy
Global Admin
Posts: 5978
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby KFCrispy » Sat May 05, 2012 11:56 pm

the elemental properties on weapons, right? But the problem is that it pretty much varies with opponents. Therefore, one can dish ridiculous damage on one enemy type but deals horrendously low damage on another enemy type.
keep in mind that if an enemy is strong vs your weapon's element, you'll deal 1x damage and not reduce damage. there's never a penalty for elements on the weapon!
i would consider having a natural element as an x-factor. if 2 characters are pretty much tied but one has a natural element, i would value that character over the other since you don't have to waste an elemental rune piece to match it.


Return to “Suikoden I”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest