So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with something

[TMan]

As some of you may remember, I have a view of Suikoden 2 that is, to say the least, not popular.

From my perspective, Jowy and Riou both are tasked with collecting 107 stars of destiny in order to control Fate. Ultimately, Jowy fails at this and Riou succeeds.

Evidence:

• Leknaat appears to both of them
  Bright shield and Sword rune are the same- both carry a true rune
  Viktor/Flik=Seed/Culgan
  Jowy hires a strategist in Leon Silverberg (often the strategy star in Suiko games)
  Characters and others often comment on the glimmer in Riou's eyes (which they say Tir McDohl also possessed). Luca Blight comments on the darkness in Jowy's eyes. (Bright shield/Dark sword)
  Ultimately, Jowy is a good guy.

Having realized and accepted this, I have to start wondering- who actually is the good guy? Obviously Jowy gets some serious bad guy points for the cold-blooded murder of Annabelle. But Suikoden seems to be a series that recognizes the idea of means justifying an end.

So Jowy joins back with Highland after seeing all the misery that comes of war. He knows City State will lose because he sees how terribly broken their alliance is. He wants to shorten the war so he applies his skills to the winning side. No doubt his burgeoning romance with Jillia (yes I'm aware many of you think she was just a tool for him, I don't agree) and the need to please his parents also influenced his decision.

Then comes Riou, who prolongs the war like heck. From the player's perspective, it seems worth it because now the world is rid of the evil Luca Blight.

However- lets count bodies: Solon Jhee managed to conquer South Window without killing anyone except Lord Granmeyer. He did not sack the city. Kiba and Klaus conquered Radat without killing anyone, apparently. Jowy conquered Greenhill in an embarrassing, yet relatively non-violent way. Matilda basically handed itself over to Highland by assuming it would never be attacked.

In fact, the only places where people were genuinely massacred were the ones where Luca Blight was involved. And Jowy promises Riou and the gang "Luca Blight will not be allowed to have his way with the City State." Presumably this means Jowy has plans to murder him. We also know that Seed and Culgan would likely be willing to join Jowy's revolution/assassination plans. Based on Kiba and Klaus' reaction to the news of Agares' death, its likely they, too, secretly oppose Luca. As does Jillia. Roughly everyone within murder-reach of the Evil-Incarnate opposed the man.

The only place where it is obvious that Riou's efforts definitely saved lives was when Kiba and Klaus came to attack Two River and, despite the treaty, decided to come in and presumably sack the town anyway. It doesn't really make sense for them to do this, so its probably safe to assume they had orders from Luca.

Meanwhile, Riou reconquers Muse, Greenhill, South Window, Radat, Matilda and Highland by force costing thousands upon thousands of lives. In the case of Kiba and Klaus' assault on North Window, Apple said he lost 2/3s of his company of 25,000. That's ~16,700 right there.

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I realize this is getting way too long and I'm going to stop myself. Many of you might look at this and go, who the hell even cares? Well, Suikoden 2, for me at least, is such a hugely valuable story about sacrifice and morality and virtue that diving into its depths is inherently rewarding. Being able to look at this game after 15 times of playing it and still discover something as unsettling as the fact that the Dunan Army (or whatever the canon name is, idk) might not actually be in the right... well that's really something.

My posting it here is probably largely self-serving. A way to make sense of my thoughts as I play through again, but I'm also quite eager to see the opinions other people may have on the matter.

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Side note, I still occasionally work on remaking Suikoden 2 from Jowy's perspective. SoD for Jowy List:
*In many places, the two stories would share SoD's, and it would be a matter of collecting them while there is a small window of opportunity. (ie, recruiting Alex and Hilda right after Solon Jhee conquered South Window)

• Seed/Viktor
  Culgan/Flik
  Leon Silverberg/Shu
  Jillia / Nanami?
  Hilda//
  Alex//
  Pilika/Idk. Nanami maybe?
  Emilia//
  Clive//
  Sasarai (thanks darknight!)/ Luc
  Wedding officiator/Gantetsu
  Jillia's Maid/Taki
  Rowd/idk what Star
  Rowd's Sister/ idk what star
  Lucia/Star from S3
  Kage/Star from S1
  Beecham/ idk what Star
  Klaus//
  Kiba//
  Yuber / Pesmerga
  Han Cunningham/Shu
  Armorer//
  Rune shop owner//
  Item Shop owner//
  Inn operator//
  Chef//

[TMan]

I just realized I posted this in the wrong place. Can some mod move this to General Suikoden Discussion?

[darkknightkv]

Sorry, just wanted to add/point out something.

"may have to invent some twin version of Luc, though I'm not sure how possible this would be considering S3"

You realllly dont have to invent a twin version of Luc considering you have Sasarai who was already on the Highland side.

[From bio]
Sasarai is a Bishop within Harmonia and also the bearer of the True Earth Rune. Sasarai was sent as a general when Highland requested military aid from Harmonia.

Sorry if you were just joking about that part and I took it seriously.


Generally I like your viewpoint but would not really label Jowy as a hero myself. He was not really a badgay....Maybe an Antihero, kinda blurring the lines between good and evil. He did assassinate a couple of people (Remember the king of Highland), break treaties, and use people for his goals....But in the end his ideals and desires were pure.

[TMan]

Oh geez how I forgot Sasarai. It's so stupid I'm tempted to pretend it WAS meant as a joke

But as much as Jowy killed a few important people, arguably Riou's fight left more dead, right?

[darkknightkv]

I do think that the battles in where riou was the aggressor had more deaths. But at the same time, they were people fighting in a war. Jowy has some cold blooded assassinations on his hand. I guess I am just arguing about a "more" justified killing.

In many cases, Jowy killing one person did end up saving lives in the end. Imagine if he did not kill the king and a civil war broke out in the middle of the war with the city-states.

And dont worry about it, the only reason I remember is because it showed how much stronger Luc really was.

[sticky-runes]

You could have the priest/minister guy who conducted Jowy and Jillia's wedding as Gantetsu's star, and Sara Blight's midwife as Taki. She could have some interesting stories about Jillia and Luca when they were kids.

[TMan]

Good ideas, added them both. Do you think Rowd would get Star status? Also could allow you to help him save his sister who then becomes a star....

[sticky-runes]

Up to you. I kinda liked Rowd, and was a bit disappointed he buggers off halfway through the game. Don't know if you could redeem him some how...

Also, I assume Lucia will have her star from S3, and could probably include a younger Beecham as well. And Kage can have his star from S1. Leon has his own star from S1 (which is the same as Klaus)

I just realised Beecham is the same star as Gantetsu, so perhaps the priest guy could replace Adlai or something. Lucia is Pesmerga's star. I think Jillia and Pilika could take Sonya and Cleo's stars.

[TMan]

Those all sound really good to me, but I think Leon would have to take Shu's star.

[TMan]

Holy crap someone has already had fun with this idea...

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Suikoden- ... -147908083

[EstrangedIX]

The Highland Path concept has been around for a little while now, and so many people would be happy as hell if it were real.

I really like the idea that Jowy was just a darker shade of good instead of a bad guy. I do think though that Leon would have to keep his Star. Maybe give Shu's to Han Cunningham or someone like that instead? Or did I miss him already being on the list?

[darkknightkv]

Oh yeah! I always forget about Han Cunningham. But come to think of it, if you are doing a "Jowy version" of it....The people he killed, could always be the one on one duels.

Would han get a star?

Gilbert as well I suppose. He was on highland side first. If we are listing mutual stars.

[sticky-runes]

It's better to keep consistent with the character's star signs, I think that's one thing fans appreciate a lot about the series. Imagine playing suikoden 5 and finding out that Lorelai and Georg don't have their same stars from 1 and 2? It would be unfaithful to the games' mythology, which is something that pisses fans off.

I see no reason why Han shouldn't have a star.

Gorudo could probably replace Kiba, and there could be some White Knights in place of Camus and Miklotov.

[TMan]

Ah right Han would probably be a part of everything. I think we'd have to give him a star.

Is it a rule that a character doesn't change star throughout the series? Honestly don't know.

Could add in a mission into Harmonia and pick up a couple of characters there.

Also, if anyone wants to help out with the actual work side of this, that would pretty epic. We've got to take all the asset rips from the game and lay them out onto an RPG Maker-esque tilesheet. It's ridiculously tedious.

[sticky-runes]

Yes, recurring characters always have their exact same star. Even in Suikoden 4, Jeane and Viki are the same as all the others. Just look on the 108 Stars of Destiny page of the Characters section on this website.

So, nobody's spoken about the other points you brought up in your OP. Oops.