Playing Suikoden II

[Aerolithe Lion]

So my Suikoden experience started in 2002. I am a HUGE JRPG buff, but in my younger years I'd only played the highly publicized games, as I hadn't heard of most other or assumed they were not worth the time as no one talked about them. I bought SIII on a whim and LOVED it. Bought IV and V on release days, and they were both fine too, but not quite the experience SIII gave me.

The biggest factors that III brings to the table involve gameplay and character-driven storyline. What annoyed me about IV and V is that only about 20-30 characters are legitimately crucial to the storyline, and the other 70 are guys standing outside the inn asking for 3000 potch. Now SIII has guys like this too, but if you count up how many SODs are characters who have story-driven party spots to use as you progress through the 5 major perspectives, or characters who have extensive dialogue, I wouldn't be surprised if it numbered in the 60's. But swapping characters in and out of your party at random is a lot more fun when you recall, 'Oh yeah, the fat lizard who is involved in 5 story battles before you even recruit him,' as opposed to 'Aldo? I don't even remember anything this guy said when I recruited him.'

But more than anything, I love gameplay in turned-based JRPGs. If you can bring more than experience and money as party building tools, I'm all for it. The Skill system in this game, with how customizable it is and how influential to your actual abilities, may be the best mechanics development system I've ever seen. I also really like FFX's sphere grid. And on top of that, having what you do to enhance your characters actually impact war battles. You wouldn't believe how disappointed I was when I found out you could just win every war battle in SIV by shooting down other ships, and it was irrelevant if every guy was level 1. Boarding ships was not only unnecessary, it seemed like you had to go out of your way to do it. I don't recall if beefing up your guys impacts V's war battles, but there's no way it's as important as III's. If you have a game with 108 characters, what is the point unless they're important? And if 60+ are playable, what's the point if leveling each one up has no impact on anything?

But moving on, I had never played S1 or 2. I finally decided to download them (as Ebay prices are pretty alarming), and I just completed 1. I have to say, it's pretty bare bones as far as combat system and atmosphere even for a PS1 game... but I do realize this is the very first game, whereas many other longstanding RPG companies had many titles before they jumped to the PS and really had groundwork to go with.

However, despite this, I found the story very deep and complex. I very much enjoy things that are commonly referred to as convoluted. I liked how they introduced things like Yuber and left him very open-ended, or revealed true runes and admitted that you really only saw 5 or 6 of the 27 total. Obviously, I've seen events that open up a lot of this in future games, but it's fun to think of it as this being the only one I know about, and everything's a mystery as I play through it. It was a fun game, I think I liked V better partially due to the advancements in how games are made, and that I don't have that nostalgia factor that most would have playing this in 1996.

And so, I just started SII. The atmosphere is great, I now understand why people were so disappointed in SIII's soundtrack after this one. I did the Matilda gate trick when Highland first attacks Muse, as some people told me it would ruin my experience of the game. I disagree strongly. I feel I like it even more, especially because the two broken characters you acquire are S1 favorites (and an S3 favorite, which enhances it even more for me). I'll give feedback as I go along, but (no offense at all intended for S1, as it it was a great game itself) I can already tell why people like this one better than 1 hands down.

[Piisuke]

I understand, mate. Suikoden V is indeed a game that really battles with Suikoden I for my second favourite Suikoden game (after II of course).

The story in Suikoden I is definitely intriguing though. It really felt like I was part of adventure and that danger was always around the corner. I lost battles, I experienced defeat. I was running away. I nearly died a few times. Suikoden V misses that. Every major battle I won. Even with the biggest odds against us. I won everything. It was too much.

Aside from that, Suikoden V is a great game and very reminiscent of Suikoden II.

Good to see you're playing Suikoden II as well now. I'm sure you'll love it. There's so much more to Suikoden II than there is to I. You'll instantly recognise the changes, i.e. the equipment system and the inventory system, the updated Rune system, etc.

Plus the story in Suikoden II is so detailed and impressive with plenty of twists and turns and so many recurring characters. It's a great experience.

[Aerolithe Lion]

I just acquired the castle, and I have to admit Im a bit disappointed. Not just in this one, but every Suikoden. The castle is always so underwhelming. I fully realize that there won't be some abandoned Victorian-style Keep just sitting around unused... But in SIII it's a broken down manor. SII it seems to be some conjoined cottages. I'm playing V again after this, but I seem to remember it being an abandoned ruins of some kind. IV had potential, but you never expanded upon your boat or explored the other 3 boats you had.

How rad would it be if you just got an open valley, and you had to just build it... Stones, boards and manpower. Or some of you first recruits were dwarves, and it slowly turned into an underground system of tunnels and complexes. Instead it's 'the abandoned North Window Monastery'! Or giant unused and otherwise average-looking boat! They shouldn't remind you of disaster relief shelters, they're your strategic stronghold!

So on that note, SI had the best HQ in my opinion. It was so much more than 'take advantage of the best we could find.' And sidenote: man this place is a friggin maze. I dare not use the elevator because that will screw me up even more!

[Piisuke]

The castle in SII is my favourite when it comes down to layout. Everything has it's place and it gets bigger the more characters you recruit. I liked the location of Toran Castle, but the interior was disappointing in my opinion.
SII had this little shopping street, a little dock, a stage where the kobolds dance and the band performs, a little farm for the farm animals.
There's plenty to explore. Wakaba and LC Chan sparring in the dojo, finding Mukumuku. There's this little terras where the likes of Simone and Vincent are, I personally love the place.

[Aerolithe Lion]

I liked that in III you literally built a small town.

My biggest issue with II is that I cannot find the dock. It does not exist! It seems they added needless corridors to exaggerate the complexity of this place

[Piisuke]

In the main hall where you have the Tablet of Stars and the lift, there's a small staircase going down (to the right of the lift). Down there there's three paths (iirc). One has an anchor and that will take you to the dock

[Hirathien]

I don't think the dock actually manifests until you got Tai Ho and Yam Koo. Might be wrong though.

[Pyriel]

If I remember right, it's blocked off by crates until you're allowed to go to Lakewest.

[Aerolithe Lion]

If I remember right, it's blocked off by crates until you're allowed to go to Lakewest.

Yeah, I'm actually well past that part. Whenever they want to go out and about, I usually give up looking for it and head over to Kuskus to sail....

[Piisuke]

I always find it funny how some people have 'difficulty' with certain things that sometimes look so simple. This is not me having a jab at you. I've had my fair share of 'durrrrrr' moments.
I know one of my friends who tried to play Suikoden I couldn't get the events with Ted started, because he didn't know that the staircases were staircases and though they were bookshelves, so he never went to the second floor of the McDohl mansion.

[Aerolithe Lion]

I know what you're saying. I'm sure 90% of the people on these boards could draw out the entire castle from memory.

I have to admit, after the interesting events that started the game, it really slowed down. I liken it to a fish you just pulled out of the water, and you're watching it breathe slower and slower... Until it finally stops. It was going at a snail's pace for a while there: fetch quests at muse, radat, south window, kuskus, back to radat, back to kuskus... And then the academy stuff at Greenhill. Watch Nina hit on flik, go to sleep, repeat, repeat, repeat.

But man, the SECOND Sheena showed up this game just exploded. Blockbuster event after blockbuster event. Can't even keep up

[Piisuke]

Yeah, when Sheena hits the scene, things really pick up. The whole post Banner Village events are some of my favourite events I've ever played in a game. I'm losing man points for this, but I shed a tear of all the epic and nostalgia that splashed on my screen.

I'm not going into detail as to what things specifically, as I don't want to spoil. However, I'm pretty sure you'll know what events I'm talking about after you've experienced them yourself.

[Aerolithe Lion]

Well, as this is becoming a spoiler-filled thread, I've met Tir, killed Luca, met Sierra, killed necrolord, surprising appearance of Lucia (though I played these two games in reverse order, so not that big of a deal to most players), Yuber showed up, saved Green hill, was almost assassinated in Muse, and acquired Georg.

So yeah, the last 5 hours of gameplay has pretty much cemented this as the best story amongst the 5 games.

On a sidenote, Double-strike, double-beat, and fury runes really ruin Suikoden. They should just get rid of them or only have them available at endgame. Because now I'm just sorting through party members, only using guys with 2-3 runeslots and not even acknowledging spellcasters, and the can't keep up. It shouldn't be like this at all. I understand why they stopped using double-beat, not only because future games have multi-swings, but it also negates useful command runes like Unicorn (personal favorite) and Titan. I like Warrior and Wizard runes. They give you nice boosts while taking something away, and don't break the game. If you have a runecaster without a wizard rune, it's not the end of the world. Same with Warrior. But a guy missing DB, DS, and fury is doing... 500% more damage than a guy just autoattacking? Georg is a shell of the man Sid can become. I also think it's a big reason why people view these games as being so easy. It's gamebreaking.

[Aerolithe Lion]

Just beat it, it was a fun one. Admittingly, as I was playing it, I was really getting pumped to play V again as I haven't played that since its release. But besides that, I would definitely rank it above 3 and 5. As random battle preparation (gear, weapons, levels, skills) really is the groundwork for any good rpg, I still have to rank 3 ahead of this one. It really is endless addicting to just fight random battles to build up each characters skill points.

I found the music to be overall very good, with a few genuine alltime classics sprinkled in. Some seemed a bit repetitive, as I found the 'danger/suspense' song getting annoying by the end of the game... as they played it every time something was happening. Same with a few reoccuring town themes. I wouldn't put it on Uematsu level, but definitely one of the better RPG soundtracks I've heard, best in the series.

The 108 stars is always an important part of any Suikoden game. I felt IV failed at this the most, as you could only use 4 in your party at a time, only once needed more than 1 party (which still only amounted to 8 guys) and characters were unnecessary in war battles because you could just cannon the other army to death. But the biggest problem in that game is only about 25 of those stars are memorable. The other EIGHTY are just throwaway characters who had some relation to a supporting protagonist or were people standing outside of inns demanding 3000 potch. I've always felt SIII really stood way above the other games as it made great use of many of the 108 stars in major storyline arcs, a byproduct of having 6 PoVs. In Suikoden II, I do feel that they did well with this area by creating character-specific events. Greenhill? Bring Flik. Tinto? Viktor, Sierra, and Marley. Even the random encounter characters had some relation to the overarching story or some other memorable Suikoden universe event (Maximilian, Mazus, Clive).

Storyline was... begrudgingly the best in the series. There's just so much stuff happening. I do think there was a bit of filler they just added to make the game longer that wasn't important at all (The Greenhill academy stuff was just... let's just say it wasn't a very hard act to follow). I say begrudingly because I really liked how the trinity system played out in 3 when it relates to the first fire bringer war, harmonia, and the major secrets unfolding. However, when you really look into it, because you were replaying the same events again and again, not a lot of stuff really went on between the beginning and the end of the game. It all happened pretty fast. Whereas in II, it really felt like this war was going on for weeks, two countries trading blows back and forth. Some nice plot twists, some predictable (toward the end of the game, I realized no major character had died, and this is a Suikoden game after all. My guesses were Nanami, Shu, or Flik -- as Victor had much more impact on the story, Flik really never had his moment.) Although some of the Jowy stuff was bizarre. He was trying to save the country from Luca, I got that. But some of the dialogue, his actions/reactions... I suppose you can relate it to the Black Sword Rune messing with him. I felt a little more connected to Tir than Riou, but it wasn't a big thing.

My biggest knock on SII would easily be the war battles. They were very boring and really didn't feel like they involved my SoDs at all. Just taking 3 turns until both armies are within striking distances and then watched it play out somewhat randomly. I feel this was the worst iteration in the entire series. IV's were also a little mundane, but you controlled ships and you could choose to invade other ships instead of just having easy rune battle fights. And they went by relatively quick. Suikoden I's original system was somewhat paper/rock/scissors, but it had life and was fun. 5's was the most complex, and that was fun as well. And of course I'm biased and feel 3's was far and away the best, as what you did in random encounters and how you built up your characters actually had major impact on the fights. But even when choosing the setup before the big confrontations in II, I just couldn't bring myself to care. It was all generally bland, this guy can do this, that guy that. Georg, Mazus, and Luc ended up being the only groups that really seemed unique to their characters. Everything else was just bland oatmeal slowly oozing across the screen. Of course I'm really drudging this one home, but it was the biggest flaw I felt in a game that didn't have many.

i liked it. 3>2>5>1>4

[Piisuke]

Going back to Gregminster is probably one of my favourite events ever.
Waiting in that little room for Lepant like Tir and Teo did for Barbarossa. Seeing Gregminster after the events of the first game, even going into the McDohl mansion.

Too bad there's characters that we know and Konami knows we know them. Lotte, Marie, Cleo, Pahn, Alen, Grenseal, Tesla, etc. Why don't they have portraits?
I was also hoping that we would be able to see Toran Castle, or even the region outside Gregminster. Lenankamp, Rockland, etc.

The battle with Luca was also epic. His strength is very impressive.