Are Suikoden fans THE problem?

[Vextor]

Found it, this was actually in 2001, so nearly a decade ago... sheesh, time flies--

Ted: I beg your pardon, but are you Miss Fumi Ishikawa?

Ishikawa: Umm, yes?

Ted: Great! My name is Ted, I am a Genso Suikoden fan who has come form America.

Ishikawa: What!? A fan, from America? But your Japanese is so good!

Ted: I appreciate your kind words, I am actually a translator by trade. I work for Isuzu.

Ishikawa: Oh, wait a minute... the mail... you sent us e-mail before about translation errors right?

Ted: Whoa! You read that e-mail! I apologize, that e-mail was rather rude, but I'm deeply honored that you have read it!

Ishikawa: Yes I read it, but we're not allowed to reply to e-mails, sorry!

Ted: Oh no no no, I never expected any reply, but I am glad that you read it! By the way, I have come here to deliver a letter, signed by Genso Suikoden fans from all over the world! I only have about 90 signatures, but these represent fans of 15 different countries, including nations like Kuwait, Indonesia, France, and many more.

Ishikawa: Wow, that is wonderful!

Ted: Will you accept this letter on our behalf? I have come to deliver this, and I've gone to great lengths to get this delivered!

Ishikawa: *laughter* Yes, I have never been appoached by a fan before, this is a first! But let me ask my boss first about accepting your letter.

*Ishikawa walks over to a group of other people, apparently one of them is her boss. After speaking with them for about a minute, her boss smiles at me and nods, and she returns.*

Ted: So will you accept these signatures?

Ishikawa: Gladly! I will definately tell Mr. Murayama about this, I really appreciate you coming all this way!

Ted: Thank you, now I could go back to America with my honor intact, I feel a load off my sholders. However, I have one other request, could I take a picture with you as proof?

Ishikawa: What? A picture? Hmm...

Co-worker: Come on, do it Ishikawa-san.

Ted: Please, unless I have a picture, people might not believe that I really delivered the letter!

Ishikawa: Okay then, I'll hold the signatures and we could take a picture!

Ted: Excuse me, could you take our picture? *Hands camera to co-worker*

Co-worker: Sure, how do I use this.

Ted: Simple, just press this button.

Co-worker: Okay then, say cheese!

*Takes picture*

Ted: Thank you so much for all this, I appreciate your generosity! I mean, I thought you'll just call the police or something.

Ishikawa: Oh no no, I won't do that! Thank you for coming all this way, I feel honored.

Ted: The thanks is all mine, please remember that you have fans all over the world, and we really appreciate your work. I don't have many days left in Japan, so this was really a sudden crazy plan of mine! But now I could die happily!

Ishikawa: *laughter* Have a safe trip back, and thanks again!

Ted: You're welcome, I wish you luck with your work.

[Novelist_Games]

Wow, Vextor, that's freaking awesome! I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't jealous! I wish that I was capable of achieving something like that, too. Although Miss Ishikawa was hesitant at first, due to the strict rules that they obviously have, it was very generous of them to gladly accept your signatures. As you said previously, they do have strict regulations, which is a shame. However, they still made an acception for you.

What were the signatures specifically for? And do you think that more of a similar, continued effort in gaining support for the series could make a difference?

[veriaqa]

As said, I personally think it's more of a Suikoden game in a LOT of ways compared to some of the others that are directly linked.

I understand that you tried to defend your opinion here, but to have said that Tierkreis is more Suikoden than 'some' others that directly linked was ridiculous. What title did you refer to? Suiko2? Suiko3? SuikoTactic? What title? Because all those title FAR more Suikoden game than Tierkreis do. Hell, even Suikogaiden (which is basically not a game, but an interactive novel) feel more Suikoden than Tierkreis. You must be on something when you wrote that.

Dont says that I should play the game before commenting etc etc etc... because I did play it. And I enjoyed it. It is a decent game, saying it is excellent make you either a newbie gamer that easily entertained or you on something when you wrote that. But it feel more like a FF game than Suikoden game when I played it.

Last from me, please dont call it Suikoden Tierkreis. Just call it Tierkreis.

[Novelist_Games]

Well, thanks for fanning the flames once again, veriaqa, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. In fact, it seems like everyone else is apart from me. Although you said "I understand that you tried to defend your opinion here", you then go on to say, more than once, that "I must have been on something when I wrote it", which is as if to say that my opinion isn't valid or mentally founded.

I've literally completed Suikoden IV again this week and, in my personal opinion, I'd confidently say that Suikoden Tierkreis (how utterly childish to tell me, as if commanding, not to call it that) provided me with more a Suikoden experience, similar to that of Suikoden I and II. Why? I think that a lot of people only take things for face value.

Raww Le Klueze, however aggrivational he was in his replies, was right; you can't simply have a game where you collect 108 stars of destiny and call it a Suikoden game. To me, Suikoden IV feels like that---it has all of the "staples" of previous games but it has elements missing. Part of that, I think, is that as a game in and of itself, Suikoden IV is a "bad" one. For one, it's plagued with a total lack of direction in many instances, requiring you to enter or exit areas that you wouldn't expect to in order to trigger a cutscene that just simply isn't needed. Also, whether or not this is due to the loading times and capabilities of the PlayStation 2 (although Suikoden III and V didn't seem to suffer from similar problems) the flow of cutscenes and events are extremely stilted, with long pauses between key moments, music stopping and starting or even simply looping to the start of the track. All of these "problems" really bring the game down and ruin "Suikoden" elements about it; an immersive plot, tension, the revelation of a genius tactic in battle. Suikoden IV did have all of the series' "staples", such as traditional turn based battles, one on one duels, army grid based battles, true runes, familiar characters, weapon sharpening, etc, etc, etc. However, the game fell flat; the plot is far from interesting, it's an extremely simple invasion with no politics involved what so ever (which the series is known for) bar the inclusion of a "governor", there were hardly any locations in the game, most of which were extremely similar to one another and those that had some "cultural" difference were still weak, the soundtrack along with it, which is no where near on par with those in the other series.

Suikoden IV also didn't have a six player party, traditional ground units for its army battles, a castle as its headquarters but does that suddenly mean that it's not a Suikoden game? Rubbish! Of course it is. At the time, the land it was set in had been BARELY mentioned in the previous titles. So, again, does this not make it a Suikoden Game?

Suikoden Tierkreis could be linked to many references in the "main" series, such as the Fog Ship Guide's words of infinite worlds, just like Suikoden IV losely could before V was released. Everyone on here seems to be missing a lot of the more subtle reasons that Tierkreis is a Suikoden game. I've mentioned it before but it's more than simple "staples" on the surface. Suikoden Tierkreis' plot (including intrigue, pacing, mystery, impending threat), it's cultures (including locations, key characters, rulers) it's politics (nations warring against each other for a REASON---not just because the Kooluk felt like it, which is how it felt, despite Cray's motivations), it's hero (although slightly annoying) being a person who's nature gathered others, it art style (again, cultural differences, influences), music score (re-enforcing the cultures and locations), are all heavily Suikoden influenced and not in simple face value ways.

Suikoden Tactics/Rhapsodia was COMPLETELY different to the main series! The only similarities that it had, was that you collected all 108 stars and it was set in the already familiar Suikoden IV world. There were no traditional turn based team or one on one battles for one (it was all tactics/grid based)! Yet simply because it's set in the world of Suikoden IV people eat it up as a Suikoden game! Hypocritical much?

I'd also only say that you should play the game before commenting on it IF you hadn't played the game and, guess what, were commenting on it! Only people with unbased opinions would claim that you wouldn't need to experience something before forming an founded opinion of it. So, that record is getting old, alright? If you've played it and you have an opinion, great. If you haven't and you have an "opinion" then don't bother trying to discuss it with me until you do. Why is that such a hard concept for everyone to grasp?

[Raww Le Klueze]

The only similarities that it had, was that you collected all 108 stars and it was set in the already familiar Suikoden IV world.

Actually, it didn't include 108 stars and it's connection were numerous to series, especially IV. It was a direct contiuation of IV, maybe you should play it?

[Novelist_Games]

I have played it---and if you want to be snide about it, (maybe you should play it?) it takes place both BEFORE and AFTER Suikoden IV. Anyway, I meant it in the sense that you collect previous 108 stars characters from Suikoden IV. It's connection to the series was in setting and story only. That's my point; it shares (hardly) any other connection with the main series at all, in terms of gameplay or otherwise. Yet fans class it as a Suikoden game. Why isn't it any different? Yes, Suikoden Tierkreis has no direct connection to the main series but, as said, some can be theorised and if you compare it to the gameplay of Suikoden Rhapsodia/Tactics, then it's more of a Suikoden game.

[Raww Le Klueze]

And you actually think we're playing these games because they have similair gameplay not because of their connecting story?

Most fans relate to Suikoden because of it's unique story approach, not the gameplay. So yes, Tactics and Gaiden count as Suikoden games because they expand and continue the story, not because of how they play.

And no, the Fog Ship Guide is not connected to Tierkreis, the notion is silly. They strongly hint at him being a Sindar for a reason.

By your defintion a Final Fantasy game is a Suikoden game because it's turnbased. Tierkreis' only connection to the series is by retconning and distorting the concept of the Million Worlds into it's Infinity crap, no matter how inconsistent it is.

The story of Tierkreis is black and white with a highway in between, the world is painted with one side clearly good and the other evil, and in case you missed the obvious plot they will literally tell you several times that "We're the good guys! They're evil!" just so you don't forget and has no political motivations and it's complete nonsense. The main antagonist has no backstory, motive or explenation, he just is. Valfred is pale copy of Cray, the Order has no REASON, as you put it, for it's war beyond "We're right, you're wrong, submit."

Tierkreis is a pathetic cliché of a story about a 15 year old that saves the world from the evil bad guy, the exact same thing Suikoden has so far been praised for not doing, and has nothing interesting going for it, down to it's characters and gameplay which are all boring.

The only thing that feels even slightly Suikoden about Tierkreis is the translation, which is sufficiently bad with even more atrocious voice acting than normal.

[ttfii]

Hmm...

I think Raww Le Klueze pretty much cleared up all the reasons why I never bothered to play Tierkreis.

Anyway, let's say a real Suikoden VI is released and it's completely badass. What if the story somehow links what we all know and love with the story of Tierkreis? Think Tierkreis would still get all the hate that it gets?

[eldrasidar]

Playing Suikoden Tactics likewise didn't make me want to play Suikoden 4 over again. Suikoden 4 still was/is a mediocre game, so while I'm glad I got to use Lazlo in Tactics, I would have enjoyed Tactics just as much, had I not played 4 prior. Likewise I enjoyed playing 3 prior to one and two, but the fact that all three games were good in their own right, inclined me to play them in order later (I ended up playing them in the order 3,2,1,2,3). Essentially the point is, that a game needs to stand on its own merits. If Suikoden VI is awesome, that's great for us and Suikoden 6. But any relation it might have to Tierkreis wont effect that. Nor would it do anything for Tierkreis' reputation.

[Vextor]

Wow, Vextor, that's freaking awesome! I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't jealous! I wish that I was capable of achieving something like that, too. Although Miss Ishikawa was hesitant at first, due to the strict rules that they obviously have, it was very generous of them to gladly accept your signatures. As you said previously, they do have strict regulations, which is a shame. However, they still made an acception for you.

What were the signatures specifically for? And do you think that more of a similar, continued effort in gaining support for the series could make a difference?

The petitions were regarding poor translation done for Suikoden 2, and to have Suikogaiden released outside Japan.
The idea was a spur of the moment thing a few days before I went to Japan, so I only had 90 signatures by then.

Later on, I ended up collecting about 6000 signatures, which I tried to deliver directly,
but I didn't have the same success I did and didn't run into any of the suikoden team-- so I mailed it to them instead.

[zqrahll]

First, let me state that Tierkreis is the only US released Suikoden game I do not own-- and I purchased every other game new when they came out. I even continued to support the series by buying Rhapsodia even after being almost completely disappointed by Suikoden 4. However, I did not buy Tierkreis for a number of reasons.

1. I don't do portable gaming. As an older Suikoden fan (I'm 32), I have no reason to own a DS. I play games at home on a large screen. I have no occasion or need to play games on a tiny screen. For another thing, I hate Nintendo & almost all of their games-- I considered getting a Wii until I realized Wii Sports would be the only thing I would play on it.

2. When i first heard about Tierkreis coming out, I did consider buying a DS just to support the Suikoden series. This would have meant spending more for that single game than most of you probably spent on used copies of 2. Then I heard that it was not connected to the series, taking place in an alternate world. Which kind of negates the whole point of the Suikoden series-- an ever expanding world of interesting nations filled with political intrigue. The various game play elements are sometimes a positive-- for example, I love 3's skill system and 5's war battles-- but they are hardly a selling point.

3. Therefore, I waited for the reviews to come out to see if it would be worth the trouble. What did I find out? A fairly generic RPG with the Suikoden name & 108 stars to recruit tacked on. Thus, I passed.

I think its pretty clear that the lack of over all direction of the series in recent years is the problem. Konami is at its best with strong design leads. Since Murayama left the series we have gotten a terrible prequel that was very watered down, a tactical RPG that was ok but a different genre from the main series, an attempted return to the series' roots that was pretty hit & miss, and Tierkreis-- which many fans do not consider to be a part of the series in anything other than name.

Look at another Konami series, like say Silent Hill. Since the series left its original team we have gotten the worst games in the series-- Homecoming, Origins, & Shattered Dreams. I even kind of liked Origins but have to admit that it pales in comparison to the earlier games. So, as far as I'm concerned, Konami is the problem. Maybe if the rumors of Murayama returning ever come true, we will get what we really want in Suikoden 6.

[veriaqa]

which is as if to say that my opinion isn't valid or mentally founded.

I respect your opinion about Suiko4 less Suikoish than Tierkreis. And I do understand that you will go such a length to defend your opinion with any bullshit you would think right. I respect that too . Really.

But maybe I too harsh too said that you were on something. I'm really sorry . I dont suggest that you are stoner or something. But you read that quote from yourself, that your opinion is.

[Novelist_Games]

Sheesh, where the hell do I start? It's great to see that the discussion has recieved so many more replies, though!

Raww Le Klueze, I do take your point that the connecting story is one of the main selling points for fans of the series, as it highly interests me, too. However, to say that a certain game isn't part of a series simply because it doesn't continue the connected story is what I personally disagree with. If that was the case then NONE of the Final Fantasy games from II onwards can be called Final Fantasy games, which is nonsense! Apart from the odd sequel (such as X-2) none of the traditional JRPG Final Fantasy games continue a connected story. However, they're all Final Fantasy games because they contain the elements and staples and provide a similar experience to other games in the series in terms of their presentation and style.

Also, to say that my notion of the Fog Ship Guide being connected to Suikoden Tierkreis is silly is arrogant, simply because you do not share the same point of view. On my side of the "argument" there is nothing concrete that connects him to Tierkreis other than his words about infinite worlds and on your side, there's also no concrete evidence to prove that Tierkreis isn't what he's describing. That's what theories are.

And of course Suikoden Tierkreis has been retro-fitted, as it was released after the games in the series before it! How do you think Suikoden IV and V came about? The content in both were obviously newly created to keep in line with the previous games in the series. You're also continuing to ignore the points that I've stated; I said that series staples, such as turnbased combat, connect Suikoden Tierkreis to the series but also---and more so---it's presentation and style. So, no, by my definition, a Final Fantasy game isn't a Suikoden game, as it doesn't share the series' presentation, style, themes or otherwise.

Admittedly, the story of Suikoden Tierkreis is a little more clear cut than the political intrigue that the series is known for. However, although Sieg (the hero) claims that they're the good guys, doesn't simply make them so. I personally had a lot of sympathy for Valfred, as he lost his family unfairly. Therefore, why is it evil for him to do what he does? In his mind, he's doing what's right, especially when he knows all will die that don't follow the One True Way. So, in a sense, as the fusion occuring is innevitable in his mind, he actually believes that he's the one who is "saving" the world. There's also quite a lot of political motivations in Suikoden Tierkreis, especially when you take Danash VIII (who I personally thought was an intriguing character) into consideration and his want for invasion of the Order and it's lands. To say that the hero has no back story and just "is" is, again, no different than Lazlo/Razro (the hero) in Suikoden IV. Valfred and Graham Cray's characters and motivations are completely different! Cray simply wanted to regain the rune of Punishment for his own selfish reasons and longing for the power that he once had, where as Valfred is not only trying to regain the happiness of his family that he lost (which Cray couldn't care less about, as, perhaps, he's too twisted at this point) but, as said, also trying to save as many lives as he can when the fusion occurs, dispite his misguided intentions. It's not that the Order has no reason, it's that it has no CHOICE. There's a strong difference. Valfred knows that the One King is coming and, he believes, that there is nothing that can stop him.

Although Suikoden Tierkreis does rely on the more familiar terroritory that JRPGs are renowned for, I think that you've actually missed quite a lot of what occurs. It's slightly different because it's catering to a new audience and in many cases it's not as strong as some of the other games in the Suikoden series (I can admit that), however, there is a lot more to it in terms of being a Suikoden game than simply not sharing a continued story.

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To eldrasidar, I think that you might actually be surprised at how people's opinions would change if Suikoden VI strongly connected Suikoden Tierkreis to the rest of the series. For example, if Suikoden IV had no direct connections to the series and its story (simply the mention of the Island Nations in previous games and familiar characters) would it have recieved the same scorn that Suikoden Tierkreis has? It would be very interesting to find out. And, likewise, if Suikoden Tierkreis had had the same (loose) connections as IV, would it be accepted into the series? Of course, connecting games in a series by content alone doesn't make a fundementally bad game a good one but I personally think that it would have definitely been "accepted" by fans as a Suikoden game regardless of its flaws, just as Suikoden IV has.

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Ah, Vextor, it sucks that you weren't able to personally deliver your second list of signatures like before, especially when you'd gathered so many more. Certain games in the series not being released in all territories is definitely something of a problem that the Suikoden series has always had. Not being able to experience Suikogaiden I and II or Card Stories in English is enough of a shame but for the entire PAL territory to miss out on a key game, such as Suikoden III is very disheartening. I didn't realise that Suikoden II was translated badly, though. Do any specific examples come to mind? Regardless, it's still to this day, my favourite Suikoden game, although I love them all.

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To zqrahll, I definitely think it's a shame that you think portable gaming isn't for you. Regardless of Suikoden Tierkress, you're missing out on some of the best games ever released, regardless of what platform they're on. Also, Suikoden Tierkreis being a portable title, returning to pre-drawn backgrounds, low-poly (pixel like) character models, is also another part of why it feels so much like Suikoden I and II. However, I certainly agree with your point that buying both Suikoden Tierkreis and a Nintendo DS would be expensive and not everyone has that amount of money to simply spend. If you don't have the money to do so, it certainly doesn't make you any less of a fan of the series.

Again, yes, the ever expanding world of the Suikoden series, it's political intrigue and rich history is most certainly one of its main selling points. However, I don't understand why you don't think that unique gameplay such as Suikoden III's skill system and any of the games' large scale battles are not selling points, either. The series' six character party, turnbased battles, combo attacks, one on one duels and large scale, tactical battles are also key staples that made Suikoden I so unique when it was first released. Other games in the series still are when compared to other series.

But, yes, the series has seemed to of lost its "magic" ever since Murayama left, although Suikoden V was an excellent attempt at a return to form. Perhaps the news that we've heard this year will eventually come true.

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Lastly, veriaqa, I really appreciate your apology and humility. Genuine, I do. I do always feel extremely strongly about my opinions but I never want it to be the case that my confidence in my own opinions discredits others'. So, please, feel free to come right back at me with further thoughts on your own opinions about the topic.

However, I don't quite understand what you meant about my quote? Anyway, it doesn't matter

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Again, the reply is huge, so I apologise, but I'm trying to keep up!

[Raww Le Klueze]

If that was the case then NONE of the Final Fantasy games from II onwards can be called Final Fantasy games, which is nonsense!

Except that Final Fantasy was never an interconnecting series and as such your argument here is ludicrous.

And of course Suikoden Tierkreis has been retro-fitted, as it was released after the games in the series before it! How do you think Suikoden IV and V came about?

I'm wondering if that was a serious attempt or if you're just trolling. Neither IV or V contradict established facts.

On my side of the "argument" there is nothing concrete that connects him to Tierkreis other than his words about infinite worlds and on your side, there's also no concrete evidence to prove that Tierkreis isn't what he's describing.

He doesn't talk about infinite worlds at all, he says he's crossed the Million Worlds. That was unfortunatly mistranslated as "traveled a million worlds". The Million Worlds have a been concept since the beginning of the series, until Tierkreis bastardized it into it's nonsensical Infinity crap.

That's what theories are

Theories are backed up with evidence. You have none, you hinge it all on a mistranslation of a particle and call it a theory.

To say that the hero has no back story and just "is" is, again, no different than Lazlo/Razro (the hero) in Suikoden IV.

Get a dictionary. Look up the word antagonist.

Valfred and Graham Cray's characters and motivations are completely different! Cray simply wanted to regain the rune of Punishment for his own selfish reasons and longing for the power that he once had, where as Valfred is not only trying to regain the happiness of his family that he lost

Maybe you should play the game before giving your opinion on it? Graham Cray wants the Rune of Punishment in order to be reunited with his son again in the rune's memories. Exactly the same as Valfred. I'm starting to see why you don't understand Suikoden IV's connections.

I think that you've actually missed quite a lot of what occurs

Irony coming from the guy who missed the central plot element of Suikoden IV.

[Novelist_Games]

Raww, there's just no point in discussing anything with you, is there? All you continue to do is disregard other peoples opinions if they are not the same as your own---simply resorting to the use of words such as "silly" and "ludicrous", especially when someone's point clearly casts yours into a "wrong" light.

My Final Fantasy argument is not "ludicrous" at all; forgive me but where is it written in stone that all games in the Suikoden series HAVE to have a connecting story? Are you on the development team? Are you in charge of the series' direction? No, I didn't think so. My comparison between Final Fantasy and Suikoden in regards to games being a part of a series is an extremely valid one. Made even more so, simply because you could only retort to it with disregarding comments. A game being part of a series determines on all of it's elements, not simply it's connecting story or face value staples. If a person completely unknown to the Suikoden series was asked to play any "main" Suikoden title, followed by Suikoden Tierkreis and then asked if they belong to the same series, I'm pretty sure that the person would answer yes. I honestly think it's a shame that you're obviously too narrowminded to enjoy some of the more rewarding nuances of the series rather than just the cold and concrete story.

And, again, "trolling". It's called making a point for discussion, Raww, followed by actual points. You might want to try it some time. What established facts does Suikoden Tierkreis actually contradict? None that I know of. And, as I said, Suikoden IV and V don't contradict any established facts, either, because their content was created after the fact and obviously designed to be in line with the rest of the series.

You also say the Million Worlds was a concept or "established fact" since the beginning of the series but why do you class Suikoden Tierkreis as "bastardizing" it in order to make it fit. You're actually quite amusing, as, despite your angered fervour in trying to disconnect Suikoden Tierkreis and prove that it has no relation to the other games in the series, you yourself have provided one right there. An established fact that existed in the Suikoden world, which is featured in Suikoden Tierkries. Just because you personally didn't like the game, it doesn't mean that it was bastardized to fit. Were any of the connections in Suikoden IV and V bastardized to fit the rest in the series, of course not! You just, obviously, have a lot of personal hatred for Suikoden Tierkreis, personally don't wish it to be a part of the series and, therefore, are simply just too narrowminded to accept anything that might connect it.

I do apologise for misreading about the antagonist, though. In my haste I misread it. I fully admit to that.

Urgh, again, I HAVE played Suikoden IV. I literally recompleted it this week. I know that Graham Cray mentions the memories of his son in the Rune of Punishment to Lazlo, so, yes, it is similar to Valfred BUT wanting to be reunited with his son is not Cray's main motivation for retrieving the rune. He wants it for it's power first and foremost, which is WHY I said that he had perhaps become twisted at that point. I didn't "miss the central plot" at all, I'm simply reading it how I saw it and how I percieved Cray and his manner and intentions. If he loved his son and wanted nothing more than to sacrifice everything to be with him, he wouldn't have cut the rune off in the first place. It's only when he then lost the rune and came to realise the power of it that he lost, that he then wanted it back. His son having been a bearer was more of a plot device, in my opinion, to connect Cray to the rune, rather than him being all happy and lovey and wanting to be reunited with his son like Valfred is with his family. Valfred never once goes after the True Chronicles because he wants their power to rule, all he cares about his is family and gaining that eternal memory.