Which Suikoden game has the best stat system?

[ninjaluc79]

I'm not sure where to post this, but, I was thinking about this recently while determining the stats of Suikoden 2 characters.
What if you can place some characters, specially the hero characters from the previous Suikodens into a single game?
Though I'm not sure which game system is the best to use when comparing the Suikoden heroes' stats.

Suikoden 1, I heard, has such a broken MP system that full-fledged mages like Luc and Crowley can have a max of 9/9/9/9 MP.

Suikoden 2, hmmm... this time, I found it okay. Except that S2 has a higher HP stat than the others, except probably S1, since the latter can break the 999 HP limit.

Suikoden 3, well, I found the HP stats in the PS2 Suikodens a lot lower than the PSX ones. I'm not sure if McDohl, Riou, Jowy, and Nanami will not benefit from the stat system in S3. Nanami, for example, has an HP stat growth similar to Luc or Sasarai, which would give her around 380 HP at Level 60, which is lower than her S2 HP of 490. And that's pretty low for a melee fighter. But at least the PSX Suikoden male heroes will fare better.

I'm not betting of Suikoden 4 definitely since a lot of people I know from Suikoden aren't born yet in the time of Lazlo. They should have placed him in S5 since he's supposed to be ageless like Ted, don't you think?

Suikoden 5, hmm, this time, the level-up gains became more linear than it was in the previous ones, which have different sets of stat gains per level gain for each level range, with levels 60-99 giving the slowest stat gains. In S5, from what I have seen from the user-submitted guides, has only one stat gain set per character per level gain, regardless of the level range. Hmm, still not sure on this one. Am I under the impression that only the Prince of Falena can benefit from this stat system?

So, I'm leaning towards the S2 game system. I'm just wondering how would Hugo, Chris, Geddoe, and even the older Lilly Pendragon would benefit from that? Or how Ted would have fared under the S2 and S3 systems, maybe?

[eldrasidar]

I'm not sure the stat system by itself really makes one game better than another. Much of the character's effectiveness in any of these game relies on equipment and runes more so than their baseline stats. One would therefore assume that nearly every character in suikoden 1 would benefit from being in a different game, because they could get more rune slots, and access to better runes. It also depends on the stats of the enemies in each game as enemies have tended to get tougher from game to game(as in they have more HP). Weapon Growth then is another key factor, which has steadily risen from 1 to 5 by nearly 100 points. Some stats also have limited functionality in game. HP, for example, only matters to a point. In any game, random battles are over so quickly, that it's rare for someone of even low HP to get knocked out once you are at level 60. Moreover, I think Konami was right to reduce the average HP over time, as in any of the games, having more than 500 HP is just silly, since it's pretty easy to negate damage through armor, and other forms of resistance(Leo in suikoden 3 exemplifies this, by having a ton of HP, but then an insanely high defense, such that he only take 1 damage from any physical attack). A final thing to consider is the skill systems of 3 and 5. These systems allow characters with a mediocre base stat to improve it, in addition to the normal equipment or rune boosts. Now I personally think 3's is better than 5's, but either one improves characters dramatically. The skill system also kinda mandates that characters from 3 or 5 only move between the two games, as when you'd lose the skill system, characters from both games suffer quite a bit, as the skill system lets them take their stats far above normal. A good character to look at is Futch who is in 1,2, and 3. With the exception of his HP which steadily decreases with each game, all of his other stats either stay the same or get better. Futch's weapon growth starts at 150 max, then goes down to 140 in suikoden 2, then gets boosted up to 200 in Suikoden 3. He gains a second rune slot for suikoden 2 and 3. and then finally, in suikoden 3, he gains skills, which further boost his abilities. Invariably, Suikoden 3's Futch is far superior to Suikoden 1 and 2's, since the only thing he's actually lost in some HP, but in return he has gained a lot of hitting power, in addition to boosts in many other stats. One would see the same thing with Lorelei's progression from 1 to 2 to 5. Overall character's are likely to be at their strongest in either 3 or 5. I'd probably lean towards 5, as the combat system is cleaner. Combo magic and formation bonuses are another reason to go for Suikoden 5.

[suiko2fan2]

I dont have a fancy math system of comparison, just precedent, In that Suikoden 2 was the 1st one i really played, so in my mind it became the default and standard bearer by which i would judge the rest by.

[ninjaluc79]

I'm not sure the stat system by itself really makes one game better than another. Much of the character's effectiveness in any of these game relies on equipment and runes more so than their baseline stats. One would therefore assume that nearly every character in suikoden 1 would benefit from being in a different game, because they could get more rune slots, and access to better runes. It also depends on the stats of the enemies in each game as enemies have tended to get tougher from game to game(as in they have more HP). Weapon Growth then is another key factor, which has steadily risen from 1 to 5 by nearly 100 points. Some stats also have limited functionality in game. HP, for example, only matters to a point. In any game, random battles are over so quickly, that it's rare for someone of even low HP to get knocked out once you are at level 60. Moreover, I think Konami was right to reduce the average HP over time, as in any of the games, having more than 500 HP is just silly, since it's pretty easy to negate damage through armor, and other forms of resistance(Leo in suikoden 3 exemplifies this, by having a ton of HP, but then an insanely high defense, such that he only take 1 damage from any physical attack). A final thing to consider is the skill systems of 3 and 5. These systems allow characters with a mediocre base stat to improve it, in addition to the normal equipment or rune boosts. Now I personally think 3's is better than 5's, but either one improves characters dramatically. The skill system also kinda mandates that characters from 3 or 5 only move between the two games, as when you'd lose the skill system, characters from both games suffer quite a bit, as the skill system lets them take their stats far above normal. A good character to look at is Futch who is in 1,2, and 3. With the exception of his HP which steadily decreases with each game, all of his other stats either stay the same or get better. Futch's weapon growth starts at 150 max, then goes down to 140 in suikoden 2, then gets boosted up to 200 in Suikoden 3. He gains a second rune slot for suikoden 2 and 3. and then finally, in suikoden 3, he gains skills, which further boost his abilities. Invariably, Suikoden 3's Futch is far superior to Suikoden 1 and 2's, since the only thing he's actually lost in some HP, but in return he has gained a lot of hitting power, in addition to boosts in many other stats. One would see the same thing with Lorelei's progression from 1 to 2 to 5. Overall character's are likely to be at their strongest in either 3 or 5. I'd probably lean towards 5, as the combat system is cleaner. Combo magic and formation bonuses are another reason to go for Suikoden 5.

I found Suikoden 5's stat system interesting, though I was like, "What? Most people here have a 00 PDEF stat growth? Is it true?" In that case, should I bring Lazlo or Ted in there, then they could be overpowered, at least in terms of magic. But nonetheless, they should still be inferior to Zerase, who many consider to be one of the most overpowered mages in Suikoden history.

I was thinking that if most people in S5 actually have a 00 stat growth, and then let's say I want to bring the Prince and the Queen's Knights into S2 then try to compare their stats with Riou and the rest of the Dunan people, then it means Riou would pretty much pwn the Falenan Prince physically, since it would mean that Prince has a much lower DEF than Riou does, unless the characters with 100 PDF at level 99 in S5 are further classified by the type of armor they can wear. If the Prince can wear medium-weight armors, then it would be safe to say that he has almost the same PDF stat as Riou does.

I found the comparison pretty much interestng because I wanted to know objectively which Suikoden character is the most broken in terms of stats, particularly heroes and mages. I find fighters of any type pretty much the same throughout the series, be they fast but paper-like characters like Nanami or the female Queen's Knights, or tanks like Georg or Humphrey.

I am particularly interested in a battle or duel between all the Suikoden heroes: Tir, Riou, Hugo, Chris, Geddoe, Lazlo, and Prince Frey. I would like to know who will pwn who. I feel the same with the mages: Ted (a rune archer), Crowley, Luc, Mazus, Jeane, Viki, Estela, Rody, Warlock, Alhazred, Zerase and Levi(the rest are full-fledged mages, as far as I can tell).

On a side note, some people say that Jowy Atreides / Blight is kind of broken, too. And I agree with that. I wonder if he would be broken in S3, as well.

[eldrasidar]

Technically what 3 did(not 5) is remove the defense stat from anyone who wore armor, and raised armor up accordingly to compensate. Creatures that couldn't equip armor still raise their Defense stat normally. combined with the armor protect skill you ended up in roughly the same place. Shield defense and parry/repel also make actual armor value less important. Nicholas pulls this off spectacularly. he almost always need to get taken down with magic because he nullifies most attacks with his shield.

5 actually inflates all of its characters stats, including defense, by a ton. Check the level 99 stat guide in suikoden 5 forum. Georg Prime has his final stats raised by a factor of 2-4 for the most part compared to his suikoden 2 version. That being said, the stats don't mean the same thing in each game. The magic stat for example. Most characters in suikoden 5 have a magic stat well above 255, which has been the max in all the previous suikoden, which would mean even the worst suikoden 5 mage would be insane in any other suikoden, except in 5 where the magic point growth rate has been sufficiently slowed to account for the point inflation, in the same way the defense got balanced in 3.

I'm kinda confused on how you want this challenge to work. is each character taking only stuff from their game, and everyone meets up at a neutral battlefield; or are all the characters getting moved into a particular game, and being restricted to that game's rules? Because if any character comes into the realm of suikoden 5, they are going to be severely nerfed, unless they have their stats suitably inflated, and likewise, any suikoden 5 char with be superpowered in any other suikoden, if they don't have their stats lowered accordingly.

[ninjaluc79]

I think all the characters should meet up in a neutral field. But that raises the question of which realm is to be used as the standard neutral field. If it is not possible, then at least S2 stats could be converted into S5 stats, then to S3 stats, and vice versa. I'm not saying that when bringing S5 characters into S2, the stats are to be retained as it is. What I'm saying is that their stats should be adjusted accordingly with the stat system that exists in the other Suikodens. Say, someone who has an S5 stat of 999 should become 255 in S2, and an S5 255 stat should be around 100 by S2. That way, mediocre mages would still be mediocre mages.

Let's say I want to bring Ted's stats into S5. As long as I know Ted's S4 stat growth rates and I know how S5 stats grow for each rate, it isn't much of a problem to convert Ted's S4 stats to S5 stats. Then I could compare him with the S5 mages like Zerase. IMO, Zerase > Ted in terms of raw MGC stat, but Ted > Zerase because Ted has the Soul Eater, while Zerase has the Star Rune.

On another side note, it would be great to have a Suikoden 6 with all the heroes from all the other Suikodens. The problem: Tenkai stars don't leave their spots in the SoDs. With this criteria, only the S3 heroes can come in as SoDs, but not the others. Nonetheless, the previous heroes can be recruited as playable non-SoDs, the same way S2 did with McDohl. Now I'm wondering if McDohl became more powered in S2 than in S1.

EDIT: The reason why I wanted to know which stat system should I use is so that I can determine OBJECTIVELY, not because I like this character and I don't I like that, which character is better than who. Like, who's better, Riou or Tir? Luc or Sasarai? Hugo, Chris, or Geddoe? Lazlo, Ted, or the Prince of Falena? JUST TO END ALL THOSE KINDS OF DEBATES. Right now, I'm leaning towards S2 because it's the one I'm the most familiar with, then S3 because of the skill system, because as you said, S5 stats are inflated.

[Thiamor]

They could actually do that. Given the FF game, they brought them all together, and there was an old Action RPG/ 2 player fighting game that brought many characters and FF characters together, they could very well make one like it for Suikoden.