Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

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Wolkendrache
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Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

Post by Wolkendrache »

Part 1

Brief Introduction: Shuihu Zhuan means Records of the Water Margin, Shuihu being Water Margin (jap. Suiko), Zhuan being Records (jap. Den). Since the game is a fantasy-style interpretation of the novel, it is called Genso Suikoden, Genso meaning Fantasy. However, due to the lack of popularity of the novel in the west, it seems the western team thought it wasn’t necessary to add Genso, thus the game is simply called Suikoden in many western countries.

Now, since this site is called suikosource, and not gensosuikosource, I thought it wouldn’t be amiss to discuss the original novel. So why not a comparison between the game and the novel? Personally, I made the experience that while reading the novel, many game characters came into my mind, and after reading it I felt extremely encouraged to replay the games. It was a lot of fun to me to discover similarities, so if you want to discover them by yourselves, stop reading (SPOILER WARNING). Otherwise enjoy, comment, and I hope you’ll be motivated to read the novel.

I don’t need to mention heroes forming a rebel army to fight the forces of corruption and tyranny, nor the legacy of the 108 stars, 36 heavenly and 72 earthly (iirc there’s even a stone tablet). That’s too obvious. Another obvious thing is the headquarters, located in a place very difficult to reach, having most suitable conditions for guerilla warfare. In the novel, it’s an area full of hills and marshes, hence one of the book translations is called Outlaws of the Marsh.

In the novel, the emperor is not considered evil, but he is deluded by evil ministers surrounding him (but not magically, just verbally). The heroes fight to free him from this delusion and beg for amnesty, and they always consider themselves loyal to him, executing the will of heaven (since the emperor is considered the son of heaven, they would never dare fighting him, although some of the less Confucian educated heroes suggest conquering the throne). You can clearly see the similarity to Suikoden 1, with Barbarosa not being evil, but deluded by Windy, even though the heroes actually also fight him.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan
Wolkendrache
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Re: Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

Post by Wolkendrache »

Part 2

As for the narration style, Suikoden 3 seems to be closest (that’s a guess, I haven’t played it), not because of a similar style, but simply because it is a unique narration style. In the novel, individual stories of heavenly stars are interlinked… it’s hard to describe, it’s like this: the first chapters tell how McDohl and his friends become outlaws until they are saved by Viktor; the narration jumps to Viktor and the next chapters tell how he came in conflict with the law and let’s say he’s rescued by Flik. They part and the story follows Flik and tells how he became a victim of corruption. He meets Humphrey and decides to join the bandits around McDohl. Story jumps to Humphrey, and so on, you get the idea. Only after most of the stars are gathered, the style changes to “normal”.

Note that most of the stars are antagonists at first, either working for the empire or in another way. An imperial general is dispatched to subdue Song Jiang (Tenkai star) and his men, but loses in battle (mostly thanks to strategist Wu Yong’s guile), is taken prisoner, asks the rebels to cut off his head, but instead they apologize. Overwhelmed by the rebels’ righteousness, the general decides to join them. Thus characters like Kwanda, Milich, Kasim, Sonya and Griffith are very typical in the novel. Another kind of antagonist is Zhang Heng: when Song Jiang, while being on the run, needs a boat to cross a river, he comes across ferryman Zhang Heng. In the middle of the river Zhang Heng reveals his plan to kill Song Jiang by drowning him and afterwards literally making dumplings of him. In his last prayer, Song Jiang mentions his name, and when Zhang Heng hears it, he apologizes saying that everyone far and wide heard of the great reputation of clerk Song Jiang, and joins afterwards. Tai Ho is not that cruel, but he’s the ferryman who shares the same star. By the way, do you remember how McDohl met Kessler and Ledon? There is something very similar in the novel, but I forgot which characters it included.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan
Wolkendrache
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Re: Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

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Part 3

Let’s take a closer look at some characters. By the way, unfortunately there are very few female heroes in the novel, but we’re talking about 16th century Confucian dominated China, meaning 4 out of 108 is already groundbreaking.

Song Jiang (1, hero): He’s not young and strong like our heroes; in fact he’s short and ugly. But he’s the ideal Confucian scholar, no other person embodies the Confucian values more than him. His reputation is often the key to recruiting certain heroes. This makes him the chief star of heaven.

Lu Junyi (2, Lepant): A wealthy squire, and probably the only one who comes close to Song Jiang in terms of reputation, plus he’s a very skilled fighter. One of many characters who are recruited by Wu Yong’s guile, similar to Lepant being recruited through a scheme by Mathiu.

Wu Yong (3, Mathiu): Chief strategist, ultra cunning. Period.

Gongsun Sheng (4, Luc): Vice chief strategist and a powerful Daoist priest. I don’t know why, but in the novel magic is always associated with Daoism. In 2 or 3 situations, the rebel army can’t overcome the enemies because of their magic. They summon Gongsun Sheng, and he blows them away. He’s probably closer to Zerase, but on the other hand, Luc can also summon the wind. But all of them are sent by an even more powerful and wise magician.

Guan Sheng (5, Humphrey): Former imperial general. As his nickname suggests, he uses a huge sword. Look at its name: Blue Dragon Crescent Moon Blade. Awesome!

Qin Ming (7, Kwanda): Former imperial general. The rebels caught him in a trap, thanks to his rashness and hot-tempered nature. Made me think of how Riou and Shu recruited Kiba.

Hua Rong (9, Gremio): Former military officer. After joining the rebels he became something like Song Jiangs bodyguard, always right on his side. One of Song Jiang’s most loyal fellows. And he shoots arrows like Robin Hood or Legolas.

Chai Jin (10, Warren) and Li Ying (11, Kun To): wealthy but generous noblemen, non-fighters, who despite their social rank have mercy to outlaws who have been wrongly framed.

Zhu Tong (12, Cleo) and Lei Heng (25, Pahn): something like police officers before joining the rebels.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan
Wolkendrache
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Re: Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

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Part 4

Lu Zhishen (13, Viktor): Character with enormous physical power, he once uprooted a willow tree with his bare hands.

Zhang Qing (16, Clive): Former imperial general. One of the most difficult to defeat, although his weapons were ordinary stones thrown with his hands! He defeated many stars until they trapped him through a complicated scheme. Other than small round missiles, there’s no similarity.

Yang Zhi (17, Flik): Because of a blue birthmark in his face, his nickname is Blue-faced Beast, while Flik’s nickname is Blue Thunder.

Xu Ning (18, Camille): After being defeated by the chain-linked cavalry of Huyan Zhuo (8, Pesmerga), the rebels succeed in recruiting Xu Ning, who is a master of the hooked lance, extremely effective for fighting cavalry. After he trains them in its use, they finally defeat the enemy cavalry and can recruit Huyan Zhuo. Wasn’t there an armored cavalry in Suikoden 1, which could only be defeated after obtaining fire spears? Moreover, the Tenyu star is mostly a spear user.

Dai Zong (19, Stallion): By putting Daoist talismans around his ankles, he is able to run at a superhuman pace. In the rebel army he acts as chief scout.

Li Kui (20, Fu Su Lu): A ferocious guy wielding 2 axes and always aching for bloodlust. But in contrast to the game equivalents, he is a very important character in the novel.

Xie Zhen (34, Varkas) and Xie Bao (35, Sydonia): These brothers led a simple life as hunters before being wrongly framed and forced to join the bandits. Varkas and Sydonia have also never been part of the imperial forces (afaik).

Yan Qing (36, Eileen): Steward and right hand of Lu Junyi. Although ranking last in the hierarchy of the heavenly stars, he is the most overall skilled character among them. He is often dispatched to missions that require exceptional skill. The latter makes Chaco a better match.

Chao Gai (non-star, Odessa): He is the founder and leader of the rebel bandits. When he was killed by a poisoned arrow, Song Jiang is chosen as his successor.

Stars 26-31 are all former fishermen or ferrymen and so on, and are later leaders in the naval warfare. 100% accordance with Suikoden 1 (Sonya, Anji, Tai Ho, Kanak, Yam Koo, Leonardo).

Stars 5-9, 12, 15-19, 22-23 are cavalry generals. Hard to compare with Suikoden 1, but some accordance with Suikoden 2 (Hauser, Kiba, Pesmerga, Flik)

That's it for now!
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan
KFCrispy
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Re: Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

Post by KFCrispy »

sadly i still haven't purchased a copy of the book to read. There are a couple different versions (search "All Men are Brothers" and "Outlaws of the Marsh", and "Water Margin") which did cause me hesitation in the past.. but maybe I should just get them all so I can catch details missing from each book/novel.

it would be cool if we can expand Suikosource to have a database on the original novel's characters with the comparative information one day. Thanks for sharing!!!!
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Re: Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

Post by BrucePrintscreen »

I am actually reading it as well. I have bought a French translation (I'm lucky to be a fluent francophone and the French translation has been praised as one of the best, I can only concur because it is very beautifully written). I have made it to chapter 20 or something, out of around 60 if I remember well. In the future I'll tell you a bit more about my impressions :)
Wolkendrache
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Re: Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

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@KFCrispy
I’ve only read two of them, but let me try to help you decide…

All men are brothers:
- only 70 chapters, it’s not condensed, it’s simply cut, with the last chapter formed to an ending
- a much more literal translation, you’ll really feel Chinese-ness when reading
- the characters speak more literary, using a more classical or official language

Outlaws of the marsh:
- 100 chapters, includes the more common ending
- a more figurative translation, easier to read and understand but maybe less beautiful
- more colloquial language (as it is supposed to be: the most unique characteristic of the Shuihu Zhuan is that it’s partly written in colloquial chinese)
-> more realistic, I don’t like bandits and soldiers talking like intellectuals

To me, a separate Shuihu Zhuan database/section is a great idea, and it’s reasonable, but I’m afraid there are too few people interested in it.

@Bruce
I’ve never heard of a 60 chapters version, minimum is 70 for the Chinese versions. There is a german translation which is way too truncated. I hope the French version is not like that, because it feels like a Suikoden 1 speedrun, you don’t even have time to remember the many names.
Très bien, je me réjouis à l'avance de tes réactions (mais en anglaise, s'il te plait)!
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan
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BrucePrintscreen
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Re: Comparison between the Suikoden games and the novel

Post by BrucePrintscreen »

Oh the thing is the French translation has been published in two volumes and I only have the first one, so I cannot really tell the total number of chapters! It may be at least 70 then, I don't know.

I reached the part where the first SoD gather in the headquarters, to use Suikoden terminology. It took 20 chapters to reach that stage! I was reading it in planes and trains during my latest long trips (I live inbetween two continents and spend an enormous amount of time communting between them). I had a delightful time so far: it is full of action and the characters are all very deep and interesting.

I did not have a list of Suikoden's SoD with me while reading, but I could guess who were Mathiu, Viktor, Flik, and Luc. These are very obvious. In the novel, 'Mathiu' is a schoolteacher turned strategist, 'Viktor' is extremely strong and prone to resort to violent solutions, 'Flik' bears a name which refers to blue and is more of a quiet fighter, and 'Luc' uses wind magic (so far the only trace of magic int he novel, the rest being realistic).

THe antagonist is also very much of a corrupted governmental asshole in a Scarlett Moon fashion.

I really love the novel. It also refers to food and drinks all the time, to the extent that at some point I started craving Chinese food while reading and rushed to have my lunch in the nearest Chinese restaurant.

All the characters are dignified and speak of honour and hospitality while being brave, funny, and eager to fight. Everything we love about Suikoden characters.
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