Non-SoD characters as SoD

Hypotheses for, and analyses of, the various Suikoden characters.
RevKoden
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Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby RevKoden » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:45 am

We've seen Lucia who is an antagonist in SII, but is Teni Star in SIII, ditto with Ted as Tenkan Star. This shows that some antagonist, Important Non-SoD and Early-Killed character are also born under the star. So what do you think the Star of these antagonist and early-killed character would be?

SII

Seed & Culgan - Chiki & Chimou, designated Pretty Boy Knights

Jowy - Tenkai, designed to be on par with Riou, i think he is also a Tenkai Star.

SV

Lymsleia - Tengou Star. Skilled general/Leader in the country, there's also that little hints of Toma being Tenkou Star who is usually Trusted Partner of Tengou Star, with Toma being a Queen's Knights Apprentice in the end...yes too LymToma shippy but too plausible.

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Sasarai10
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby Sasarai10 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:44 am

Seed & Culgan were more like the equivalent of the Viktor & Flik duo than Pretty Boy Knights. So I guess Seed would have Viktor's Star and Culgan would have Flik's Star.

As for Luca I would put him under Georg's Star. Both notorious for tremendous physical strength, although different personalities.

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ninjaluc79
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:52 am

I have heard people saying Odessa could make for a really good female Tenkai Star, but I don't know what you guys think about this.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby sticky-runes » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:51 am

Wolchendrach already came up with a brilliant idea for a Tactics game set before Suikoden 1 that has Odessa as a major character (more of a Lino type role) although Tactics does not use the whole 108 star thing because its a side story/in-between event that doesn't involve true runes. I don't think Tenkai would suit her.

RevKoden
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby RevKoden » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:16 am

Odessa acts more like Tengou star, personally.

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sticky-runes
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby sticky-runes » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:26 am

Lino is a Tengou star.

If I was to give some of the Tactics exclusive characters stars, I would say

Andarc = Tentai (Pahn)
Seneca = Tenman (Cleo)
Yohn = Tenai (Gremio/ Lyon)
Coop = Tenyu (Humphrey)
Simeon = Tenkan (Luc/Zerase)

Can't bothered to think of the others right now.

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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby Wolkendrache » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:42 pm

It all depends on what function or role these characters have in your story. As for the heavenly stars, Murayama used a lot of almost exact equivalents to the novel for Suikoden 1. The following list contains the heavenly stars’ roles before and after joining, and in brackets their unique features:

1 protagonist and leader
2 strong & wealthy squire / second-in-command (charismatic deputy leader)
3 professor / chief strategist (battle-winning schemes)
4 taoist priest / battle mage & secondary strategist (battle-winning magic, scholar of a sage)
5 imperial general / 1 of 5 main cavalry generals (unique large blade)
6 imperial martial arts instructor / 1 of 5 main cavalry generals (skill with weapons)
7 imperial general / 1 of 5 main cavalry generals (hot temper)
8 imperial general / 1 of 5 main cavalry generals (chain-linked armored cavalry formation, black banner & stallion)
9 military officer / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (loyalty to protagonist)
10 nobleman / 1 of 2 chief accountants (welcomes wrongly framed persons in his mansion)
11 nobleman or squire / 1 of 2 chief accountants (benevolent to good people)
12 constable / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (duo with 25, helps protagonist early on)
13 garrison major / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (physical prowess, entertaining)
14 constable / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (incredibly strong, long backstory)
15 imperial general / 1 of 5 main cavalry generals (refined and cultured, double spears)
16 imperial general / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (flings stones with extreme accuracy)
17 military officer / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (blue facial birthmark, temporary duo with 13)
18 imperial lancer instructor / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (hooked lance)
19 military officer / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (rash, golden axe)
20 prison warden / scouting chief (can run at superhuman speed through Taoist talismans)
21 illegal trader / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (vagabond life)
22 jailer / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (uncontrollable bloodlust, 2 axes)
23 squire / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (young talented fighter)
24 rich & strong man / 1 of 8 light cavalry generals (from wealthy and influential family)
25 constable / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (duo with 12, helps protagonist early on)
26 pirate ferryman / 1 of 8 navy leaders
27 fisherman / 1 of 8 navy leaders (trio with 29 and 31)
28 pirate ferryman / 1 of 8 navy leaders (obsessive gambler, duo with 30)
29 fisherman / 1 of 8 navy leaders (trio with 27 and 31)
30 pirate ferryman / 1 of 8 navy leaders (duo with 28)
31 fisherman / 1 of 8 navy leaders (trio with 27 and 29)
32 executioner / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (duo with 33)
33 firewood seller / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (duo with 32)
34 hunter / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (duo with 35)
35 hunter / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (duo with 34)
36 steward / 1 of 10 senior infantry officer (loyal steward of 2, excellent at espionage due to many talents)

Now, if you look at the stars tablets of the games ( http://www.suikosource.com/chars/stars/ ) you can see that Murayama constantly dissociated himself from building equivalent characters regarding their roles. Interestingly, it looks like the writers of 4 and especially 5 returned to building equivalents (e.g. connection between stars 2 and 36), and there are indications that they were rather following the novel than Murayama’s Suikoden 1. For example, star 58 (or earthly star 22) is a strong but rough and extremely lecherous guy of short stature; in S1-3 it’s Futch, in S4 it’s Dario, and in S5 it’s Gavaya. (Imho the problems of S4 and S5 lie in gameplay or in general in a rushed production, but not in the field of writing. Just for those deifying Murayama exclusively.)

You can as well see the problem of a “born under star X” concept in a series with returning characters. Georg is a good example: He first appeared in S2 where he’s some vagabond guy, strong but not very important to the story, so the Teni star is fine there. But in S5 where he is a major character, he should be a more prominent star, I think Tensyo star 14 would’ve been perfect. If you write a story in which Ferid is Tengou star 2, then Georg should be Tenkou star 36. In a story where Ferid is the Tenkai, Georg should be Tenei star 9. So if you really want to follow the “equivalent roles concept” (unlike Murayama from 2 onwards), choose wisely for returning characters…
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby ninjaluc79 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:30 am

Last night, I was thinking, "What about Leknaat herself?"

If Leknaat herself is going to be an SoD, she would probably be the Tenkan Star, a.k.a. The Tablet Guardian.

Her student Luc was the Tablet Guardian for the first three games, though the third one doesn't really count because he's on the antagonist side there.

Although Ted was named the Tablet Guardian in IV, there wasn't really any Tablet of Promise in that game, it was just a list of Lazlo's followers, and it was Desmond who actually performed the duties of the Tablet Guardian.

Zerase is connected to one of the 27 True Runes (namely, the Night Rune), similar to Leknaat who actually holds the back half of the Gate Rune.

From the antagonist side in I, Windy would probably be the Tablet Guardian.

Thoughts?
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Sasarai10
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby Sasarai10 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:25 am

It would be weird to put Desmond as a Tablet Guardian, so they chose to put Ted instead, because it makes "more sense".

Wolkendrache
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby Wolkendrache » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:28 pm

I don't remember whether the novel equivalent was actually guarding the tablet. But he had 2 more feats worth mentioning:
1. He was the student of a daoist sage (in the novel: daoism = magic)
2. He was the strongest mage. In the game there is an earthly star that has more experienced mages, but these don't have true runes .
Because of the above, I don't have problems with the decisions on the Tenkan stars in the games.
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bluemask
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby bluemask » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:22 am

Considering the game mechanics don't really follow the correlation per series, I think they're just judging it base on who are assigned on the prior series (strong mage, etc.).

Tbh, Ted really didn't even bother with the Stars or the tablet at all so I don't think there's any sense in that. It's more like, he's just there because he was asked to. I think Fukien was even more fitting to be the Tenkan star in S1:
- He has adept Magic knowledge
- Knowledge-wise he knows alot about the Stars (might even be on par with Leknaat's)

Now if only there's a game where Leknaat is playable... One could only hope.

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sticky-runes
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby sticky-runes » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:42 am

If there were to be a game with Leknaat as a SOD, I have a feeling it would feature the event where the Clan of the Gate are massacred. It could possibly be the first ever major war involving true runes, and so would predate S4. I think Leknaat would be the tablet guardian like Luc, and the Tenkai star would still be an all new character that the player names.

Windy could be the Sanchez/Sialeeds/Jowy of the story who starts off as an ally then has a different opinion to Leknaat and turns against her and ends up blinding her. Either that or she remains as a SOD throughout the entire game and then turns against Leknaat during the ending.

Other events could include the magic battle between Crowley and Mazus, and the battle between Yuber and Pesmerga, just to shut the nerds up.

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bluemask
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby bluemask » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:33 pm

@sticky-runes:
Woah. That's one grand scheme if that were to materialize. I like the way you think and that Yuber/Pesmerga bit LOL :))

I think.. Leknaat could be the Tenkai. While she manages to collect all the 108 Scars of Destiny, she thought they'd win but she failed miserably after the war and everyone was massacred. Oh wait, Hikusaak could be the Tenkai in all that plotting and decided the fate of the Gate clan instead. I guess I got the timeline messed up here...

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sticky-runes
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby sticky-runes » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:33 pm

I just think it would be best if they stick with the formula of the Tenkai star being a character that the player chooses a name for. I mean the playable character is someone who we make the decisions for (however restricted a lot of those decisions may be) so I don't like the idea of being able to control the personal decisions of a character like Leknaat who's role and character have been firmly established in the world of the game already.

I imagine Leknaat would function a bit more like Zerase. She might not be as haughty as Zerase, but she's there to watch over things and see how they play out and step in with her magic and lend her assistance when its absolutely necessary. If I was playing the game as Leknaat and and making her decisions for her, it wouldn't feel like we were being true to her character.

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bluemask
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Re: Non-SoD characters as SoD

Postby bluemask » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:27 am

So you do value the neutrality huh. I have to re-state that as well, re-reading that. Yep, Leknaat isn't the heroic type to go and do things on her own. More like she just watches as people either suffer or triumph and just lends a hand when needed. Guess having a hero with a personality would rather alter the trade of the game.

Now I believe seeing Leknaat's back story is more fitting for a side-story-esque type of supplementary content. Would love to see a different side of her though.


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