How do they control demons?

Ask questions about the events that take place during the Suikoden games themselves.
Post Reply
secondevolution

How do they control demons?

Post by secondevolution »

I've only played the first two games (I say only, they're arguably the best of the series) and the empire often have demons/beasts within their ranks. I'd like to know how they are able to tame and control these monsters? In the first game, I suppose it could be explained by Windy's powers, and the Black Runes, but what about the second game? We can see they have the likes of Colossus in their army, but who or what is controlling them?
KFCrispy
Global Admin
Posts: 6174
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by KFCrispy »

i think the answer to this type of question is: it's a game. there are simply many things put into games for the purpose of gameplay. why do monsters drop potch or carry antiques? can you actually measure someone's abilities with numbers? why do you need a Holy Rune to run, and why does a certain item make my "unite attack" have a higher chance to make Nanami hold a picnic? battles are just there to let you gain more money, experience, and items. the enemies placed in an area usually try to match the theme of the area, but that's pretty much it.
secondevolution

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by secondevolution »

Sorry, but I don't agree. Characters being struck with swords without shedding blood. That's a gameplay mechanic. Not being able to use magic to smash open a harmless locked door. That's a gameplay mechanic. This, however, doesn't qualify, especially when they went out of their way to explain it in the first game.
User avatar
Raww Le Klueze
Global Admin
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:38 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Raww Le Klueze »

secondevolution wrote:especially when they went out of their way to explain it in the first game.
How so? There's no explenation for Moravia castle being infested monsters, Kasim Hazil never had a Black Rune.

There's no explenation for there being a giant clamshell in Shasarazade, Sonya never had a Black Rune.

You know why? It's a game, it needs enemies. It's that simple.
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.
LanceHeart
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by LanceHeart »

secondevolution wrote:We can see they have the likes of Colossus in their army, but who or what is controlling them?
Domesticated monsters? They're not summoned from some "demon dimension" like their S1 counterparts, so it's still entirely possible that those same monsters (note how they roam the world map in Highland) were domesticated for war.
Formerly known as: Gothann
User avatar
Fei Wong
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 1:17 pm
Location: Crystal Valley

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Fei Wong »

Its an RPG for god's sake, the world is full of monsters, so be prepared to see them at castles, towns, mountains...etc.
Let our mercy as deep as the Feitas and our authority as powerful as the Sun be revealed to the entire World!!
User avatar
Mise
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:54 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Mise »

It was speculated that control over monsters is a part of Yuber's Eightfold. We've never completely seen what that rune is capable of- and it IS a true rune, right? The first three games had the following in common- the villains controlled powerful monsters, and amongst the villains was Yuber. I think it's a better explanation than "It's an RPG and fighting monsters is fun", I'd like to think that the Suikoden series is a little above that.

Also notice that, in the games Yuber doesn't appear in, the enemy doesn't control an arsenal of monsters, but rather, an arsenal of troops.
It is no coincidence that man's best friend is incapable of speech.
User avatar
Raww Le Klueze
Global Admin
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:38 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Raww Le Klueze »

I think it's a better explanation
Several problems.

1. Suikoden III clearly shows that if Yuber isn't in the general area any monsters he summoned will disappear. He was never in Moravia or Shasarazade thus he has no control over them.

2. By the time you invade L'Renouille castle Yuber has already fled the field.

3. Yuber is not in IV or V yet you fight monsters on enemy territory.
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.
User avatar
Mise
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:54 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Mise »

Raww Le Klueze wrote:Several problems.

1. Suikoden III clearly shows that if Yuber isn't in the general area any monsters he summoned will disappear. He was never in Moravia or Shasarazade thus he has no control over them.

2. By the time you invade L'Renouille castle Yuber has already fled the field.

3. Yuber is not in IV or V yet you fight monsters on enemy territory.
I don't recall fighting monsters inside of the sun palace, or Stormfist. I have only played IV once and it was a while ago, and even though I still only recall fighting soldiers while inside of their bases, I won't act as if I know for sure.


And when you invade L'Renouille, it is true that Yuber is nowhere to be found, but isn't it also true that the beast rune was unleashed for the final battle? It wouldn't be the first instance in which creatures were spawned forth as products of a true rune. In fact, I believe Yuber and Pesmerga themselves are examples of such creatures.

As for Yuber not being near Moravia or Shasarazade- perhaps he was. Pesmerga himself has claimed that Yuber is "Like a shadow", and with a true rune that is grounded in such mystery, and with powers that include teleportation as seen in Suikoden III, it's difficult to say for sure. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be Yuber controlling those particular monsters. We learned that Windy herself can summon them as well thanks to her piece of the Gate rune.
It is no coincidence that man's best friend is incapable of speech.
User avatar
Raww Le Klueze
Global Admin
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:38 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Raww Le Klueze »

Mise wrote:but isn't it also true that the beast rune was unleashed for the final battle?
Yes, the final battle. Which incidently occurs after you already made your through the castle.
It wouldn't be the first instance in which creatures were spawned forth as products of a true rune.
As a matter of fact, it would.
In fact, I believe Yuber and Pesmerga themselves are examples of such creatures.
What you believe in that regard is not relevant. Nothing supports this belief. And I find it somewhat ludicrous for the product of a True Rune to bear one.
As for Yuber not being near Moravia or Shasarazade- perhaps he was.
Yes, and perhaps pigs are green and can fly, but nothing in the games suggest it so it's a non-argument.
and with a true rune that is grounded in such mystery, and with powers that include teleportation as seen in Suikoden III, it's difficult to say for sure.
I can say this for sure, there's no information that even suggests it, therefor it's not an argument.

You can use the same pish posh logic to say that Windy liked to sneak into Tir's bedroom for a quickie every month. There's nothing that explicitively says she didn't so you can't disprove it.
Furthermore, it doesn't have to be Yuber controlling those particular monsters. We learned that Windy herself can summon them as well thanks to her piece of the Gate rune.
When you're argument is "It's Yuber doin the controlling", yes it does have to be Yuber for it to work.

And Windy is nowhere near those places either. Neither is anyone else we have reason to suspect can summon monsters.
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.
User avatar
Mise
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:54 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Mise »

Raww Le Klueze wrote: Yes, the final battle. Which incidently occurs after you already made your through the castle.
That was the point. The castle at this stage would be less of a castle, and more of a gauntlet of trials the hero must go through to reach the rune itself.
As a matter of fact, it would.
Other than runes whose specific purpose is to summon forth creatures, yes?
What you believe in that regard is not relevant. Nothing supports this belief. And I find it somewhat ludicrous for the product of a True Rune to bear one.
Why would such a thing be ludicrous? Luc and Sasarai are clones of the same person, Hikusaak, and each possess unique personalities and runes of their own. It doesn't seem that runes discriminate very much beyond a humanoid intellect and a pulse.

As for it being "my belief", I only worded it that way because I may have been wrong in my recollection. I will try to find the specific source that suggested the idea, but for now, I'll let this one go.
I can say this for sure, there's no information that even suggests it, therefor it's not an argument.
No information that suggests it, including the instance in which he teleported away at the last minute before being cut down by Geddoe (or Hugo if you chose Geddoe as the flame champion) in the final battle.
You can use the same pish posh logic to say that Windy liked to sneak into Tir's bedroom for a quickie every month. There's nothing that explicitively says she didn't so you can't disprove it.
This is getting a little silly, isn't it? And a little more insulting as I go on. I'm not making stabs in the dark here. I'm taking the fact that monsters are present, and fighting for the villains, as well as the fact that among the villains is a man who is known to summon and control these monsters, and am suggesting that he probably had something to do with it.
When you're argument is "It's Yuber doin the controlling", yes it does have to be Yuber for it to work.

And Windy is nowhere near those places either. Neither is anyone else we have reason to suspect can summon monsters.
Unlike Yuber, there is nothing shown that suggests that Windy needs to be present to control any monsters.
It was less an argument solely for Yuber controlling all creatures, and more an argument against "It's an RPG- people like to fight monsters." because the latter is nothing more than senseless catering for the sake of making a game marketable. If you have any better ideas, I'd encourage making them known. But by all means, continue to find reasons why my ideas could not work- I mean it. Because what's important here is learning the facts, rather than trying to come up with justifications for our own presuppositions. Right?
It is no coincidence that man's best friend is incapable of speech.
Antimatzist
Posts: 2770
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Germany, yeah baby
Contact:

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Antimatzist »

Mise wrote: I don't recall fighting monsters inside of the sun palace, or Stormfist. I have only played IV once and it was a while ago, and even though I still only recall fighting soldiers while inside of their bases, I won't act as if I know for sure.
Well, you fight some monsters on Iluya in S IV which must have been brought there because nearly alle the island has been destroyed. For S V, I couldnt find a listing of all enemies.
Mise wrote: This is getting a little silly, isn't it? And a little more insulting as I go on. I'm not making stabs in the dark here. I'm taking the fact that monsters are present, and fighting for the villains, as well as the fact that among the villains is a man who is known to summon and control these monsters, and am suggesting that he probably had something to do with it.
Yes, it is getting a little silly, because you ARE making stabs in the dark here. Of course you can have your opinion about this topic, but if you can't back it up with in-game-informations, you can't say it's true. You mostly speculated and your maina rgument was "Yuber is mysterious se we don't know", but that's not really an argument to believe it either.

I can see Windy controlling and summoning the monsters in Suikoden I (she's a powerful magician and was able to summon a lot of monsters in the final battle, even though she wasn't even on the battlefield, just near it), but in Suikoden II, it's just a gameplay mechanic like in every other RPG.
KFCrispy
Global Admin
Posts: 6174
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29 pm

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by KFCrispy »

there is *some* sort of explanation about controlling monsters in Suikoden III, but nothing concrete. your army theorizes that Sarah casts blinding spells on the monsters that are summoned... but that really doesn't explain much since it's one thing to make them look like Harmonian soldiers, but it's another when one saw Hugo charging them (Chapter 4 battle from Duck Village) and said something like "who's there?" like a real soldier...
User avatar
Raww Le Klueze
Global Admin
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:38 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by Raww Le Klueze »

That's because they use the monsters as filler for the army and have real soldiers protecting Sarah.
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.
tiki
Banned User
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:37 am

Re: How do they control demons?

Post by tiki »

Why shouldn't the enemy have control of monsters if you can?

The Suikoden series offers many possible explanations as to why your army can control monsters. Riou and Nanami befriended Mukumuku, despite his species being a monster class, in their youth and in turn he started a gang of friendly flying squirrels that help people.

Beaudox is a monster tamer, and gives you crystals which allow you to communicate with monsters for recruiting them. Abizboah, Rulodia, Chuchuria and Feather are all monster classes, they still join. I'm not sure if Seigfried is a monster class, since he's a unicorn and all.

Shiro is wolf, who is a monster class enemy, but still works peacefully with Kinnison and then you.

Millie has Bonaparte, apparently a monster/demon of some sort, who she feels comfortable enough with that she can sleep in his mouth according to Richmond. (?)

Do-Re-Mi elves can be recruited in Suikoden V despite being seen numerous times as monsters in Suikoden 2.

Hugo's steed is a Griffon, like Feather from Suikoden 2, who he seems to be able to communicate decently enough with despite lacking a Listening Crystal.

There's a whole group of people in Suikoden 3 that can tame and ride insect-class monsters.

Several enemy humans in battles throughout the series can be seen using an attack that causes all monsters on their side of the field to attack at once, either by the crack of a whip or some alternative.

There's probably many, many more that simply aren't coming to mind.

It seems all you have to do to tame a monster is to treat it with kindness - or optionally, just break it's spirit and force it to obey you. And I suspect that the enemy empire in each game has more than enough funds to allocate to taming powerful monsters to protect their passageways from intruders. It can't be too hard, just give them plenty of food and train them not to attack anyone in guard uniform, or being accompanied by a guard.

As for there being no explanation for Sonya's giant clam or other such monsters/bosses: Lephant was willing to pay Jeppo to rig his entire house up with clockwork creatures to attack intruders. Is it really beyond belief that Sonya's castle had a giant clam monster stored inside, released on intruders that the normal guards couldn't take care of? It doesn't need to be 'Evil magical runes allow for the controlling of monsters!', someone powerful enough and with the means (see: someone with a frickin' castle) could easily have a few monsters in their reserves.
Post Reply