How do they control demons?

[Hirathien]

Now, Mukumuku and the such aren't controlled, they got a will of their own.

[tiki]

They're still a monster class, their brothers and sisters in the field fight you in random encounters. What makes you think the enemy's monsters don't have wills of their own and choose to serve them no different than Mukumuku/Shiro/Fubar? Probably good food workin' for the Evil Empire, all the Wanna-Be Tenkai Stars you can eat.

[Hirathien]

Well, some enemies have a Target lady with them. And they attack what she tells them to. Certainly some enemies got a will of their own, in theory, at least. But i'm pretty sure they have some kind of thing that keeps them in check. Since it's a lot of monsters, and all of a sudden they can turn on them. Doubt that it would be very good for the enemies if their own monsters turned on them.

[tiki]

My point is: It's silly to question "How do the enemies control monsters?" as if it requires the power of some True Rune or other magical/evil force, when there's plenty of monsters who are either Stars of Destiny (Mukumuku) or servants/pets/slaves of Stars of Destiny (Bonaparte).

It's no different from asking how enemies use runes - you can, why shouldn't they?

Granted, the enemies do seem to have better monsters in their ranks than the heroes do, but that's what happens when you're a broke little punk living in a crumbling castle.

[Hirathien]

Crumbling? Broke? Eh? The one in Suikoden II doesn't crumble apart, nor are you poor.

And i'd still not call Mukumuku and the likes a monster.

And by that logic, we can sharpen our weapons, why shouldnt the enemies be able to?

We can ressurect party members, why shouldn't they be able to?

[Antimatzist]

It's a difference to control some monsters (which are always tame(d)) or an army of them imo.

[tiki]

#1:The one in Suikoden 2 is indeed crumbling when you first get it. I'm assuming that the army isn't exactly rich because of the limited amount of horses the City-States can conjure up in war, whereas nearly every general and their soldiers in Highland is afforded a horse. Not to mention it's unlikely you guys have the time to train any massive, dangerous monsters, since your castle is established in the middle of a war.
#2: Bonaparte is undoubtedly a monster. He's not a real-life creature, he can massively expand in size, he can inhale people to devour them, he has massive fangs and numerous eyes.. and Fubar/Feather are likely monsters since you kill so many of their kind as enemies.
#3: No, that's stupid and if you're not merely playing dumb you damn well know why. Weapon sharpening is a game mechanic, but I have no doubt that the enemy faction in each game have blacksmiths to sharpen and forge their weapons - just like I have no doubt they have people who can control monsters like Hugo, Millie, Riou/Nanami and Beaudox can. Try and make me respond to something like this again and I'm done with you.
#4: That was a one-time thing for Gremio. If they want to collect their own 108 stars of destiny to ressurect someone, they're free to do so (assuming it can ever work again after bringing back Gremio), but we haven't seen it in any game yet.

[Nikisaur]

I think befriending monsters on an individual/personal level is very different to having a monster army...

[tiki]

When presented with a choice between "The enemy tortures/feeds/trains/befriends monsters into submission (see: this being possible because your own army does it to a limited degree)" and "The monsters aren't really there as a part of the plot, they're just there because you're playing an RPG", I choose the former.

[Nikisaur]

I think it's both. The former being the excuse, the latter beign the reason.

[Hirathien]

#1:The one in Suikoden 2 is indeed crumbling when you first get it. I'm assuming that the army isn't exactly rich because of the limited amount of horses the City-States can conjure up in war, whereas nearly every general and their soldiers in Highland is afforded a horse. Not to mention it's unlikely you guys have the time to train any massive, dangerous monsters, since your castle is established in the middle of a war.
#2: Bonaparte is undoubtedly a monster. He's not a real-life creature, he can massively expand in size, he can inhale people to devour them, he has massive fangs and numerous eyes.. and Fubar/Feather are likely monsters since you kill so many of their kind as enemies.
#3: No, that's stupid and if you're not merely playing dumb you damn well know why. Weapon sharpening is a game mechanic, but I have no doubt that the enemy faction in each game have blacksmiths to sharpen and forge their weapons - just like I have no doubt they have people who can control monsters like Hugo, Millie, Riou/Nanami and Beaudox can. Try and make me respond to something like this again and I'm done with you.
#4: That was a one-time thing for Gremio. If they want to collect their own 108 stars of destiny to ressurect someone, they're free to do so (assuming it can ever work again after bringing back Gremio), but we haven't seen it in any game yet.

Ok.

1. Horses do not win battles. They make you move faster, you get a bit higher up from the enemy. But what else do they do? They're easilly taken down with spears and magic. And if you think about it, you're basically this rebel army who takes a stand against an evil Kingdom. Where would you go to get horses in the middle of all that? Are horses that important? The answer is no. Horses are not that important, horses cost money, they are easy targets and if you take out the horse big chances are that you also take out the rider. Highland uses horses mainly because they're attacking, if they're attacking they need to be swift. And about the generals in Highland, well, you don't have that many Generals in Suikoden II have you? Or captains for that matter. Considering the "Masses" you see on the screen is only a fraction of what your army actually consists of.
And about the poor part, well, the Castle wasn't in the best of shapes, but it wasn't really crumbling. I bet they have the same amount as any other people, they just use it a bit more wisely. Everyone starts out somewhere, eh.


2. The term monster is tossed around wildly. What is a monster? Wikipedia says this:
"A monster is any fictional dangerous or hideous creature, usually in legend or horror fiction. The word "monster" derives from Latin monstrum, an aberrant occurrence, usually biological, that was taken as a sign that something was wrong within the natural order.

The word connotes something wrong or evil; a monster is generally morally objectionable, physically or psychologically hideous, and/or a freak of nature. It can also be applied figuratively to a person with similar characteristics."

Would that qualify Bonaparte as a monster? Perhaps. He's hideous (except Millie thinks he's cute). I'd just say he's a pretty weird creature though.

So, just because you encounter a wild entitiy of one race, that makes the whole race "Monsters"? I gotta say, that's some great logic there.


3. That logic i was using came from your previous statement. So basically you're done with yourself, that's kinda cool actually. If you wonder what statement that is, it's this one: "It's no different from asking how enemies use runes - you can, why shouldn't they?".

I'm pretty sure there's some sort of higher force at play though. Seeing as it's so many monsters controlled by the enemy, and they're usually everywhere you go in enemy territory.

4. Ressurection Rune. Not Gremio, although that would be a plausible one to jump to conclusion to, i just thought you'd think more generally at the combat parts, you know. The Game mechanics.

[eldrasidar]

1. horses are vital to warfare, even in suikoden. Yes, there are true runes and incredibly powerful mages like Crowley, but they are the exceptions in the world. most magic isn't that overwhelmingly powerful. horses on the other hand are very good for warfare, for much the same reason that often when a car hits a moose, the moose wins. a horse is the giant beast of muscle pummeling towards you, giving the average ground troop two choices: run, or get run over. the warhorse is known as the medieval tank for a reason. not having cavalry is a pretty good sign that you are going to lose in a pitched battle, unless you have incredibly good terrain and battle plans on your sides. the other thing about horses are that they are expensive to maintain, each one often costing 5 times or more to maintain that a single soldier, and that's not even including the rider, stablehands and so on. if one has enough money to spend on horses, it implies you are fairly well off in terms of funding, particularly if horses are not native to your region.

2. I believe for this case, Monster applies to anything you can fight in a random battle, with the exclusion of plot based enemy characters, and the non-humanoid members of you army, particularly those who cannot communicate through language. Monster in this sense doesn't imply monstrous, much like how barbarian in the tradition usage doesn't imply barbarous, but rather lack of Roman citizenship.

3. Enemies do use runes, and through progression through the game enemies do get improved stats, which means they also "sharpen" their weapons.

4. Resurrection spells are fairly rare in this series. and technically they aren't resurrecting someone, as much as restoring their stamina and energy so they can continue fighting. and even that is a fairly complicated tactic, which most of the enemies encountered wouldn't be able to grasp. those enemy soldiers that could grasp the concept, probably cannot afford such rare orbs, and they probably aren't standard issue, except to say doctors. meanwhile, you play as general, with access to pretty much whatever you want, including rare runes and armor. why don't enemy Bosses? well partially because it would be lame to have to beat a boss twice(although sometimes bosses will revive fallen lackeys), but perhaps they have more pride then to use a resurrection orb to save their butts.

as to the enemy armies controlling monsters. this really isn't all that common, particularly outside of 3. the average monsters are just local nuisances that everyone has to deal with, not aligned forces with the other army. you just don't see anyone else dealing with them, because you just aren't there. now some true runes and high level magic practitioners can summon monsters from another dimension, but you mostly see this as the exception, as the occasionally boss fight. Only Suikoden 3 shows an large amount of monster controlling, but those are all just really good illusions, not actual monsters.

[Hirathien]

As a reply to Eldrasidar up there:

Keep in mind that most of the times you're defending places, having horses there aren't that useful. They help, ofcourse. But i'd never say Horses define a win or a loss, they mainly make you faster. And in Suikoden II, when you're fighting to push Highland back, where are you supposed to get the horses? It's not like they've left so many behind that you can acquire one by just randomly walking around and finding one.

[gilgamesh31]

Saying that having random monsters fighting with the enemy is a gameplay device and that theres no room to speculate is a joke especially on a forum where youre suppose to discuss such things.

Raww Le Klueze wrote "What you believe in that regard is not relevant. Nothing supports this belief. And I find it somewhat ludicrous for the product of a True Rune to bear one." "Yes, and perhaps pigs are green and can fly, but nothing in the games suggest it so it's a non-argument."

saying things like this is incredibly dismissive, arrogant and closed minded.

Tiki wrote "Why shouldn't the enemy have control of monsters if you can?The Suikoden series offers many possible explanations as to why your army can control monsters. Riou and Nanami befriended Mukumuku, despite his species being a monster class, in their youth and in turn he started a gang of friendly flying squirrels that help people. Beaudox is a monster tamer, and gives you crystals which allow you to communicate with monsters for recruiting them. Abizboah, Rulodia, Chuchuria and Feather are all monster classes, they still join."

Tiki's theory is completly plausable but its seems if its not written somewhere in stone by Konami theres no chance of it even being possible. Some people *cough* Hirathien and others just get side tracked with something said and just keep picking at it until i think "am i still reading the same topic" Example:

Hirathien wrote:
". Horses do not win battles. They make you move faster, you get a bit higher up from the enemy. But what else do they do? They're easilly taken down with spears and magic. And if you think about it, you're basically this rebel army who takes a stand against an evil Kingdom. Where would you go to get horses in the middle of all that? Are horses that important? The answer is no. Horses are not that important, horses cost money, they are easy targets and if you take out the horse big chances are that you also take out the rider. Highland uses horses mainly because they're attacking, if they're attacking they need to be swift. And about the generals in Highland, well, you don't have that many Generals in Suikoden II have you? Or captains for that matter. Considering the "Masses" you see on the screen is only a fraction of what your army actually consists of.
And about the poor part, well, the Castle wasn't in the best of shapes, but it wasn't really crumbling. I bet they have the same amount as any other people, they just use it a bit more wisely. Everyone starts out somewhere, eh.


. The term monster is tossed around wildly. What is a monster? Wikipedia says this:
"A monster is any fictional dangerous or hideous creature, usually in legend or horror fiction. The word "monster" derives from Latin monstrum, an aberrant occurrence, usually biological, that was taken as a sign that something was wrong within the natural order.
The word connotes something wrong or evil; a monster is generally morally objectionable, physically or psychologically hideous, and/or a freak of nature. It can also be applied figuratively to a person with similar characteristics."

Would that qualify Bonaparte as a monster? Perhaps. He's hideous (except Millie thinks he's cute). I'd just say he's a pretty weird creature though.

So, just because you encounter a wild entitiy of one race, that makes the whole race "Monsters"? I gotta say, that's some great logic there."

The whole horse thing was mentioned in relation to how wealthy the enemy is so why wouldnt they be rich enough to employ "monster"? Also the "monsters" were referring to creatures you have to fight, including beasts such as yes flying squirrels and wolves (mukumuku and shiro). So can we just try and be a little less hostile when someone is giving there theories people?

[Raww Le Klueze]

saying things like this is incredibly dismissive, arrogant and closed minded.

If applying common sense equates to closed minded in your book then consider my mental door closed, locked, barred, bricked up, and the key thrown away and the masoner with it.

And yes, it is common sense that just because the game doesn't outright tell you something didn't happen that can't be used as proof it did. The very same logic can be used to "prove" Neclord is Tir's father, Luca is really a ghost and Hugo is a transexual, cause hey, the game never says they aren't.

Theories need evidence to back them up, stating things with none to support them qualifies as an unjustified theory and those are to be dismissed.

Stating "I think X is Y because of A, B, and C" qualifes as a theory whether it's right or wrong, stating "I think X is Y" does not, not even if it by some astronomical strike of luck turns out to be spot on.