[FAQ] Devil's Doll (Character Discussion: Mel)

[Punkaiser]

Yea, but even with that range, she still can claim the top spot damage dealer. You just reminded me to appoint to her the +1 swing title. As it was done, she is now dealing 8k on average to Copper Sun and 6.7k to windri, a single char wipe out more than half Hp of the last boss, huh huh. Really, that description of adding 300 fire damage is bulls, DD rune must be a x2 damage non elemental rune with that fire breath as animation.

[Punkaiser]

Here's the video I've just recorded for the last battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsJMcWocEVA

[KFCrispy]

haha pretty sick.
i haven't done any work on trying to calculate the damage myself, but if it's truly adding 300 Fire to her attack, I would think it's going to get the same multipliers as her swings, as in: Swing 1 is 100%, so +300 fire; Swing 2 is 75%, add 300*.75=225; Swing 3-x are all 75% of Swing 2 (or 56.25% of Swing 1) = 168.75.
This approach is working out for your numbers, but I think an even better test is to test her at low levels and/or only 1 swing. That way her normal attack should be very weak, and the rune's +300 Fire would be really obvious!

I was dealing an average of 408 damage with 3 swings, or 1175 damage with devil's doll.

3 swings: that is 231.25% of the base attack. Multiply the 300 fire dmg by 2.3125 = 693.75... add that to the original 408 normal damage from 3 swings and it's 1101.75. We might even be able to account for the ~75 extra dmg from your averages by assuming a rune's combined attack only gets the enemy's defense applied once as opposed to each swing during normal attacks, but I have not verified this either.

one more thought: does the 300 fire damage simply get added to her physical attack, or does it go up as a separate damage source against the enemy's MDF? based on the few set of numbers i reviewed, it probably just adds to physical attack, but if so, what does that mean for the target's Fire Resistance?

[eldrasidar]

I'm definitely positive it's not a x2 or x3 damage rune, because it does wildly different amounts of damage compared to say red rose or shrike, which are pretty consistent, and the average damage it does isn't particularly close to either x2 or x3. I'm much more on board with KFCrispy's theory, that it's like a super sword of magic attack.

also, add nei's super song of madness to this, and she pretty much hits the damage limit against everything.

[Punkaiser]

According to my Mel performance, this formula should not be right. Since she swings 6 times with all succesful hits the math will be :
900+630+ 450+ 450+ 450+ 450= total 3330
If the DD was a x2 damage rune => logically the damage output is 6660 which is the exact number i got
but let's suppose DD adds 300 damage for each hit (not even need to count 2nd swing= 70-75% of 1st one) => added amount=6 x 300= 1800
3330+1800=5130 => it's wrong here.
Right now the test is proving that rune is a double damage modifier, no?
As in the previous talk with eldrasidar, i think we should't launch the test with her at low level because Mel seems to be affected heavily from tech stats/accuracy matter which causes her a big trouble at beginning. When my set up is ready, her range of DD damage becomes quite reliable.

[KFCrispy]

I did a test to see, that's why i think it is actually a x2 damage rune. Mel normally swing 5 times :
900 670 500 500 500 . When i use DD , sshe hits for roughly 6k(sometimes even 7k, might be one of the hits was a critical) much likely as double damage.

you're getting 900 670 500.. with Double-Strike and Fury, correct? Did you realize that would mean her normal attack damage is causing about 300 as well? 300*2*1.5 = 900.... if the Fire damage is also multiplied by the swings and runes as well, it certainly looks like it doubles the damage.

an average of 408 damage with 3 swings, or 1175 damage with devil's doll.

later on you have weaker attacks and the multiplier looks bigger , because the DD's flat 300 dmg is significantly greater than her base damage.. and the math i provided where the 300 is affected by the swing multipliers seems to work.

i am trying to review the numbers more but i think a few targeted tests can figure it out. are you fighting low-level enemies to reduce dodge/defense rates?


Basically if DD's adding 300 flat damage to her normal ATK, then with 6 swings it's about +1200 damage (300+225+168.75x4.. more simply 300 x 4). So no matter how much you adjust her ATK whether she does 1 dmg or 500 dmg, DD should be adding 1200 and it's still boosted by other damage modifiers.

[eldrasidar]

Indeed, the thing is it may be appear to be x2 at some points, but not others, so it's not a static multiplier.
Take away the x3 bonus to your damage from fury and double strike, so you can see the actual damage you're doing and you get 300+210+150+150+150+150 base damage. Assuming the fire damage adds on like a second parallel hit, so it would do 100% damage for the first swing, then 75% for the second, and so on, if your first attack does 300 damage exactly, it would double your damage. if your first attack did less than 300, it would be more than doubling, but if you did more than 300 with your first swing, it would be less than doubling.

you should also be aware, that going to level 67 isn't really that big an improvement over level 55, considering that after level 62 you're only gaining 0-1 in all your stats. Since the game doesn't expect you to go much over 60, any gains acquired aren't going to majorly affect most characters, with exception of the magic stat, which of course raising higher will continue to give you access to more spells.

[KFCrispy]

to account for the variance, i think we have to say that while the attack acts like 1 hit, it's still taking each 'swing' separately and seeing if the enemy can dodge/defend against it, and that would probably mean the defense is still applied as if it's a normal attack chain... but i'm pretty sure there are no critical hit chances with these special attacks... and that should mean that the maximum number you get from several attempts should be used to compare against her theoretical maximum damage output.

[eldrasidar]

I think that was already the assumption I was going on, which I think is probably on purpose, since it helps sustain her characteristic better lucky than good set up.

[Punkaiser]

Possible. Is there any cheat device which can modify het strength and weapon to 1 for exemple? If so, we could have the real answer through test at that moment, until now, still just our guess is going on.
With str and weapon at 1. If her DD still does 3k+ damage => KFC's theory is right.
If she does like < 20 damage => my guess is right.

[KFCrispy]

i can certainly test when i get my PS2 up and running again

[eldrasidar]

I couldn't test that, but I did see if Sword of Magic would add any damage. It doesn't. Oh well.

[Punkaiser]

i can certainly test when i get my PS2 up and running again

You...didn't happen to do 8 swings on it after loosing in the dragon horse race?

[KFCrispy]

heh.. the wire thing got too bent up i guess when i was moving, so it wasn't transmitting the A/V

[KFCrispy]

just curious--what is Mel's SKL compared to similar level 04 SKL growth characters? maybe she's actually 03? wouldn't you say she's as inconsistent as Rhett??
04 SKL growth:
Bright (who you said is doing extremely consistent damage!)
Dupa
Elaine
Fred
Gau
Geddoe
Hallec
Koichi
Landis
Melville
Mua
Nicolas
Reed
Rody
Shiba
Wilder

03 SKL growth:
Alanis
Kogoro
Koroku
Piccolo
Rhett
Rico
Sasarai
Wan Fu