[Character Discussion] Lilly Pendragon

[Punkaiser]

killer is never good enough to be compared to fury, not even need to mention double strike i.e.
Imagine that even if your characters has 100% crit rate with killer rune, it's still worse than having 1.5x damage with fury rune and 66% crit. I mean there's no way a character with 15% crit is better than himself with 1.5x damage and 10% crit.

As for Lily, I still think she's better to go with reed/samus, not to spam their unite but can somehow do many thigns at same time such as doing the unite in first turn for damage and buff lily with berserk status, so you won;t need fury rune for her, you can try magic sword+doublestrike instead to normal attack from next turn that way seemingly she got 3 runes : dble strike+fury+magic sword while reed and samus support with items under unbalanced then do whatever you want from the third turn.

[ninjaluc79]

So, the most optimal use for Lilly requires Reed and Samus in the party? Great, I'm planning to have at least one healer unit, since S3's party consists of 3 units of 2 people each.

That said, I like Magic Sword + DS better, if not for the elemental resistances (but I read that you still deal the full damage even when the enemy resists the element, though).

Without Reed and Samus, though, there always the Shield Rune. But 30% chance + no healing (it's just the downgraded version of Bright Shield from 2, after all) isn't really worth it, I guess.

[eldrasidar]

actually, a 100% crit rate at any number of hits = 2x damage, which is the same as a double strike rune, without any penalty on damage you personally take. And that doesn't include the possibility of a 3x multiplier, which is even better. however this obviously isn't the case, so moving on...



I know KFCrispy has done a critical look at criticals that suggests that they aren't all that frequent even with killer and heavy damage skills, but my own personal experience tells me that they are actually reliable than the 12-18% found by KFCrispy, particularly since he didn't factor in a chief's hat to anyone's critical, plus the fact that criticals are determined by stats which are randomly developed.

However, using KFCrispy's math and factoring in a Chief's Hat to raise it a little bit, Lilly should critical somewhere between 16-20% of the time depending on her actual stats by the end of the game with the help of a killer rune. This will allow her to do a critical hit once every 5-6 hits, and she gets 3 hits a turn. Adding a x2 multiplier that frequently to an attack turns out that on average it adds the amount of damage as a Warrior rune or a Sword of Magic rune would for Lilly with the potential to deal substantially more, without having to have her make herself more vulnerable defensively or waste skill slots on magic skills.

All in all, the Killer rune is a solid 3rd choice rune for characters like Lilly, or a second choice if the detrimental effects of the double strike rune are a major concern, which I know for you Punkaiser is not the case.

the unite with Reed and Samus isn't necessarily all that helpful to her. if you expect the combat to last only one turn, and you're fighting only 1-4 monsters, it's great. If combat goes to a second turn though, you've gone from 3 characters doing an extra x2 damage(plus whatever personal damage multipliers they have) to 1 character doing x1.5 and 2 doing nothing at all. Certainly, it's not worth doing early in the game.

[Punkaiser]

Before when making the ranking, I already consider killer rune performance and find that it doesn't bring much of good.
So i was trying to find out with which crit rate, killer rune bring more benefits than magic sword rune. Here's my math:

Y is crit rate of Lily,

-With killer rune it becomes 1.5Y so she's got 1-1.5Y chance to deal 1x damage and 1.5Y chance to deal 2x damage(just ignore 3x for both cases)
Average damage with killer rune= base damage*[1-1.5Y + 2*(1.5Y)]= base*(1+1.5Y)

-With magic sword equipped she still got Y chance to crit for 2x damage and 1-Y chance for 1x damage while magic sword bring a boost of 1.34x damage
Average damage with magic sword= 1.34*base*[1-Y+2*(Y)]=1.34Z(1+Y)

So which Y would bring more benefit from killer than from magic sword?
only if
base*(1+1.5Y) > 1.34*base*(1+Y)
<=> 1+1.5Y > 1.34(1+Y)
<=> 0.16Y> 0.34
<=> Y > 2.125
It's impossible for crit rate to reach 212% which means killer rune never can be as good as magic sword or fury or double strike in term of consistency.

I agree that Tinto unite is not the best for reed+samus and the whole team in term of total damage output, but it's always the best for Lily and i was saying just in case we need more temporary healers in boss fight like the one vs Yuber infront of sindar gate, reed and samus can fit perfectly the task under unbalanced just like Viktor using clone rune in S1 so we don't have to rely only on joe or waste hugo/fubar attack turn for healing issue. Just have to make sure Reed and Samus don't pair together so they both can perform an item command in next turn. For exemple:
Reed--Hugo--Samus
Lily---Fubar--Joe

[ninjaluc79]

So, Magic Sword is still better, then?

Now, suppose I don't want to use Reed and Samus for whatever reason (other than perhaps "they both suck"), Lilly can no longer be an effective fighter, if not mage knight, then?

[Punkaiser]

Regarding her skill set, so i guess there're really 3 choices for her but none really is the best
-pure attacker :fury/double strike, needs someone to tank or she can't last long . I think this is her canon build since it takes the most advantage from her stats and skills.
-magic sword user: fury/magic sword, safer than the one above but of course less effective
-thunder or lightning mage knight: like any other characters with B+ affinity, set her up with full elemental rings and wizard hat. Then affix her with fury + thunder for exemple, so she can still kick around and also can nuke, i think you might like this balanced build but it requires extra farming.

[ninjaluc79]

Hmm... Pretty much the only thing going here is the Tinto Unite Attack, Shield Mages, and then Magic Sword/Thunder runes. But even with Shield Mages, it's still not enough. So, yeah.

P.S. If making her a full DD is the canon build, WE NEED SUPPORT MAGES AND A FIREFLY TANK.

[EstrangedIX]

I prefer Fred and Leo as tanks. Never used firefly with them, but I think others have mentioned that it works well with Leo. Not sure I'd put anything other than double-strike on Fred, though- just my preference. I think you've probably got more options for support mages, but Rico's not bad for healing if you want to take advantage of her unite with Fred now and then. There's also Nei and Shabon to consider as well.

Early in the game you'll be limited on your choices due to character/chapter separation with the recruits. Not sure who all is possible for a party with Lilly then. She officially joins with Hugo, right? So I guess only those who are recruited with him are options until chapter 4. I'm partial to Chris's 99 trick, so I always recruit everyone who can be affected by that with her instead, though I think Nei & co can be recruited with Hugo.

[Leon481]

Early in the game you'll be limited on your choices due to character/chapter separation with the recruits. Not sure who all is possible for a party with Lilly then. She officially joins with Hugo, right?

Lilly joins for Hugo's chapter 2 and 1/3 of his chapter 3. She then leaves and doesn't come back to join officially until mid chapter 4.

While she's with Hugo, you are stuck with a party of Hugo, Sgt. Joe, Lilly, Reed, and Saemus. Fubar and Twaikin are the only candidates for the last slot before she leaves. You could use Twaikin as your tank, but he does have uses in other chapters, so you may not necessarily want to get him with Hugo. You're pretty much stuck with Sgt. Joe as your healer.

[ninjaluc79]

I think Joe's a solid healer. But can the Hugo/Fubar pair tank for Lilly just as effectively as Twaikin alone?

[Leon481]

I think Joe's a solid healer. But can the Hugo/Fubar pair tank for Lilly just as effectively as Twaikin alone?

Probably, but I'm not entirely sure. I've never used them that way before. They are pretty durable, but I'm not sure how firefly would work with the mechanics of a mounted pair. You would also still have to be VERY careful against the boss of chapter 2. He can take out Hugo and Fubar even mounted.

I'm not even sure what runes Hugo has access to during his chapter 2/early 3. He kind of has limited access to a lot of things until Lilly actually leaves.

[Punkaiser]

the mounted pair can tank allright but there's a problem as we don't have access to firefly rune until hugo or chris chapter 3 according to suikosource's current bestiary. And in chapter 2 unless you spend quite sometimes to farm, you won't probably have enough runes to ultimately set Lily up so she won't need the others to tank that much. To avoid too much time wasted on farming, fury rune is easier to get in hugo chapter 3 and double strike can be purchased right at the start of chapter 5.
I usually recruit Twaikin with Chris since he's one of the characters who level up along with recruiter.

[eldrasidar]

hugo/fubar isn't all that good a tank, unless you pop a wall rune on them, as neither of them have great defensive skills or armor. If you do the Yuber fight in hugo's chapter two, you'll find yuber has only slightly more difficulty killing hugo/fubar than anyone else. Twaikin is a substantially better tank, in addition to being an okay earth mage(A in earth magic, lousy magic stat though)

[Punkaiser]

yea, twainkin is generally better tank as the game progresses. But in chapter 2, if i don't remember wrong, access to strong armors is very limited so i usually farm for a taikyoku tunic then equip it to Hugo(not very easy task though) 78def from it easily beat early heavy armors and damage is halved when hugo mounts on fubar, that's how the pair can tank well early game. Then since there's no firefly rune, Lily still has to rely on blue ribbon, buy it from duck shop, i think.

[KFCrispy]

yeah Lilly is pretty safe thanks to Blue Ribbon.
don't forget that critical hits in this game ignore enemy defense. a 2x critical hit is stronger than a normal attack's damage getting doubled. this is especially noticeable vs Rock Golems.

i do like Magic Sword, but in most cases it's a waste of a turn.. Tinto Attack is probably pretty crippling to your party as well--but i forget if you can use magic scrolls when unbalanced--then Samus and Reed should pack multiple magic scrolls (Kindness Drops, Soaring Bolt, Clay Guardian) to add some nice effects.